how best to exploit a common dealer error

[Meistro]

Some dealers do not wait for your hand signals on no brainer hands, for example twenty vs anything. Recently I had a dealer that would do this regularly, especially when I was sitting at third base. Naturally I began training her to do this, giving no hand signal on very obvious cases but immediately signalling for anything close such as 12 or 13 vs 6, thus reinforcing her tendancy to do this.

So obviously this is a very easy error to exploit, but I will probably only be able to pull the hammer once, so I figure it is best to wait until you have 20-30 units or more out there. What exactly should I wait for? A big bet out when the dealer has a hidden sixteen (then doubling or splitting to exploit this fact?). Knowledge of the next card? At this joint they do not burn exposed cards, they are in play as the next card. Should I wait for an ace to be drawn and then double down and receive it on my 20? Or should I try and save a tough loss, for example I stand on 12 and 15 vs a bust card, dealer pulls the unlucky 6 or 7 to make 20 or 21, and then I demand to be able to hit or double my 12 instead of standing? Or should I just take the first clear cut case of +EV change when I have big bets out?

 

[kewljason]

Are you sure you want to win that way? I would have no problem doing so with a legitimate error, but for me setting the dealer up for this borders on cheating. (actually for me, it's over the border...lol) Legitimate errors are part of the game, but otherwise, while the money is important to me as BJ is my only source of income, I like the satisfaction of knowing that I was able to legitimately beat the casino. Not trying to judge you, just stating my own feelings.

 

[SleightOfHand]

Most casinos do not allow backing up of the cards

 

[Meistro]

Today the pit boss reached into the shoe and moved the cut card forward three two decks on me. I have no mercy for these bastards and want to dominate them anyway I can, including ruthlessly exploiting dealers (although I will not cross the line into cheating). For example the other day a card was exposed but I didn't see it. I asked the dealer. He told me it was a 10, so I smashed down the table max. Of course I pulled a 2 to go with it, and the dealer was showing a ten!

Mind you I drew A and 8 as my next two cards, so I wasn't so unhappy. But then I ****ed up royally and tipped the dealer a black chip, which was practically my +EV for the hand.

 

[FLASH1296]

You toked a black chip ?

You need to 86’ yourself.

 

[Meistro]

I know I know, it was really stupid. I regretted it immediately. Is it possible for dealers to cheat in shoe games? For example at my local store I recently saw a guy bet the table maximum, double down 13 and pull an 8. This is a $4000 hand we are talking about. Now I have seen ploppies do so some stupid **** for big money, but this guy was slick. After the hand he counts his money, picks up his chips. cashes out and leaves. So I'm thinking the dealer is in on it, but if the dealers can do **** like that to make people win, they can do **** like that to make me lose right? And if they could, it would probably be the middle aged men that deal suspiciously slow that I should avoid, right?

 

[Deathclutch]

I know I know, it was really stupid. I regretted it immediately. Is it possible for dealers to cheat in shoe games? For example at my local store I recently saw a guy bet the table maximum, double down 13 and pull an 8. This is a $4000 hand we are talking about. Now I have seen ploppies do so some stupid **** for big money, but this guy was slick. After the hand he counts his money, picks up his chips. cashes out and leaves. So I'm thinking the dealer is in on it, but if the dealers can do **** like that to make people win, they can do **** like that to make me lose right? And if they could, it would probably be the middle aged men that deal suspiciously slow that I should avoid, right?

This is some of the most dumb **** I've read in a while. The guy was slick and the dealer pulled an 8? Find a bigger edge if you want to tip black chips.

 

[Bondy3]

I have seen someone tip black chips ONCE, and it was because he won the lucky ladies side bet (and he tipped $400 for winning 14k) and then the dealer told him he was cheap for only giving her $400....

 

[aslan]

I have seen someone tip black chips ONCE, and it was because he won the lucky ladies side bet (and he tipped $400 for winning 14k) and then the dealer told him he was cheap for only giving her $400....

That should provoke some very interesting karma. :laugh:

 

[moo321]

If you're going to tip anything serious, you should just meet the dealer offsite. Like, if I hit a $14k jackpot, I'm not tipping uncle sam and every jagoff on that shift so that poor guy can get $10.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Hand Jive

There are a few different ways to play this, and most of them involve deking the dealer into exposing a card with an ambiguous hand gesture. It helps if you are making all kinds of hand movements, and you can get the dealer to anticipate a hit sign without actually giving it. I call it the Hand Jive and that's exactly what I'm doing, and a way to get the rhythm of it is to watch some hand jive videos. This isn't cheating; it's the dealer's job to wait for a clear hand signal.

Another game you can play is to play two hands, and get your hands involved with the dealer's during the pickups and payouts, and you can sometimes hand jive a dealer into screwing it up. At one store I was playing pat-a-cake with a dealer all night, made a bit off it. Yeah OK, that's more like cheating, but the dealer still wasn't doing her job.

You'll probably get to do this more than once, so I wouldn't worry about timing it too much, just be sure to know the win rates of as many hands as possible so you can know when to accept the card and know when to request a dead hand. If you want to make this a big money play, you'll need an accomplice betting minimum to do something really stupid to screw up the hand. A $10 ploppy can get away with things we can't.

Want to really make a mess of things with your hands? Sitting at first base, you have the cut card, have a chip in your hand pressed against the right side of the cut card and in your usual drunken state, wantonly slam it down into the shoe. You'll get a preview of things to come, if you know what I mean.

 

[kewljason]

There are a few different ways to play this, and most of them involve deking the dealer into exposing a card with an ambiguous hand gesture. It helps if you are making all kinds of hand movements, and you can get the dealer to anticipate a hit sign without actually giving it. I call it the Hand Jive and that's exactly what I'm doing, and a way to get the rhythm of it is to watch some hand jive videos. This isn't cheating; it's the dealer's job to wait for a clear hand signal.

Another game you can play is to play two hands, and get your hands involved with the dealer's during the pickups and payouts, and you can sometimes hand jive a dealer into screwing it up. At one store I was playing pat-a-cake with a dealer all night, made a bit off it. Yeah OK, that's more like cheating, but the dealer still wasn't doing her job.

You'll probably get to do this more than once, so I wouldn't worry about timing it too much, just be sure to know the win rates of as many hands as possible so you can know when to accept the card and know when to request a dead hand. If you want to make this a big money play, you'll need an accomplice betting minimum to do something really stupid to screw up the hand. A $10 ploppy can get away with things we can't.

Want to really make a mess of things with your hands? Sitting at first base, you have the cut card, have a chip in your hand pressed against the right side of the cut card and in your usual drunken state, wantonly slam it down into the shoe. You'll get a preview of things to come, if you know what I mean.

Dispite the fact that you claim these methods are not cheating, you use the word "accomplice". Definition: an associate in wrongdoing, especially one who aids or abets one in a criminal act.
I think you have used this term correctly. :laugh:

 

[aslan]

Dispite the fact that you claim these methods are not cheating, you use the word "accomplice". Definition: an associate in wrongdoing, especially one who aids or abets one in a criminal act.
I think you have used this term correctly. :laugh:

Hey, so he likes to monkey around! It's sort of automatic, if you know what I mean. Just because he was tricking a hapless dealer, doesn't mean he was, er, uh, cheating--I mean, if you say it is cheating, it all depends on what the meaning of is is. And I have that on very high authority, er, uh, former high authority, that is.

 

[Sucker]

Definition of "cheating at gambling", according to Nevada law:
Any attempt to alter the frequency or amount of a payout in a gambling game.

All three of the moves that AM describes are what is known in the business as "pulling shots". And pulling shots DOES fit the legal definition of cheating. However, PROVING it was intentional and not just an accident may be another story; short of an outright confession. Or possibly if you were to repeat the act enough times in the same casino (captured by video,of course), to the point where it was OBVIOUSLY intentional. If they suspect you of pulling shots, they will put a camera on you, to see if you keep it up. No one ever gets arrested for doing it just once or twice. But I'm assuming that AM knows all of this and knows when to back off......

I DO know of at least ONE court case in which the state obtained a cheating conviction, on a person doing one of these moves too many times in the same place.

 

[kewljason]

Definition of "cheating at gambling", according to Nevada law:
Any attempt to alter the frequency or amount of a payout in a gambling game.

All three of the moves that AM describes are what is known in the business as "pulling shots". And pulling shots DOES fit the legal definition of cheating. However, PROVING it was intentional and not just an accident may be another story; short of an outright confession. Or possibly if you were to repeat the act enough times in the same casino (captured by video,of course), to the point where it was OBVIOUSLY intentional. If they suspect you of pulling shots, they will put a camera on you, to see if you keep it up. No one ever gets arrested for doing it just once or twice. But I'm assuming that AM knows all of this and knows when to back off......

I DO know of at least ONE court case in which the state obtained a cheating conviction, on a person doing one of these moves too many times in the same place.

May not meet the Nevada Law definition of cheating, but if you are using words like deke (deception) and the aforementioned 'accomplice', it's probably a little too close to the line for my comfort. :laugh: I guess that's a call each individual would have to make, unless as you point out the state make that call for them with a conviction.

I personally take a great deal of pleasure in beating the casino's honorably at their own rules using only my brain with no 'trickery'. AM, who I admire and like a great deal, is able to accomplish this feat using his superior intelligents at many games I wouldn't even attempt to try to beat, so while I am not judging, I personally hate to see him even consider this route.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

May not meet the Nevada Law definition of cheating, but if you are using words like deke (deception) and the aforementioned 'accomplice', it's probably a little too close to the line for my comfort. :laugh: I guess that's a call each individual would have to make, unless as you point out the state make that call for them with a conviction.

I personally take a great deal of pleasure in beating the casino's honorably at their own rules using only my brain with no 'trickery'. AM, who I admire and like a great deal, is able to accomplish this feat using his superior intelligents at many games I wouldn't even attempt to try to beat, so while I am not judging, I personally hate to see him even consider this route.

Oh you don't like "accomplice?" OK how about "accessory" or "co-conspirator?" :eyepatch: :joker:

Deke is decoy. Besides, we deceive the casinos all the time. If they ask you if you're counting, what do you tell them?

Dealers are trained to do their job in a certain way and if they fail to, it is at their peril. The most profitable one is when a dealer shows you their cards. If they are dealing properly this will never happen. If they're not, there are people who consider HC to be cheating but it really isn't and the courts have upheld this, even in Nevada. Likewise a good dealer is going to wait until they get a non-ambiguous signal before they expose a card and if they try to anticipate, they are the one who did something wrong.

Now other shots like twiddling thumbs with the dealer, I agree, that crosses a line and is more like being a pickpocket. OK, I don't do this very often and probably shouldn't do it at all. Probably most of us have done things that would give other AP's pause. I know a couple of very good players, clean as a whistle at the table but they play and accept comps on fake ID, which makes even me nervous.

Regarding the NV definition of cheating posted by Sucker: wow there are all kinds of ways you can interpret that. Under a literal reading counting would be cheating, when we know it is not. Everything we do, we do to increase the amount and frequency of payouts.

 

[Sucker]

Regarding the NV definition of cheating posted by Sucker: wow there are all kinds of ways you can interpret that. Under a literal reading counting would be cheating, when we know it is not. Everything we do, we do to increase the amount and frequency of payouts.

Absolutely true, and the Nevada Supreme Court has ALSO many times agreed that the law as written is overly vague. The most famous case is the Einbinder-Dalben decision of 1984, in which the court ruled that Steven Einbinder and Tony Dalben, who had been arrested for hole card play; because they had done nothing to CAUSE the dealers' error, and because they were using only their brain power and their powers of observation; were NOT guilty of cheating

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Absolutely true, and the Nevada Supreme Court has ALSO many times agreed that the law as written is overly vague. The most famous case is the Einbinder-Dalben decision of 1984, in which the court ruled that Steven Einbinder and Tony Dalben, who had been arrested for hole card play; because they had done nothing to CAUSE the dealers' error, and because they were using only their brain power and their powers of observation; were NOT guilty of cheating

Interesting. So my ambiguous hand work, that is an attempt to cause a dealer error, like drawing an opposing linesman off side, so under that reasoning it would be cheating.

 

[aslan]

Oh you don't like "accomplice?" OK how about "accessory" or "co-conspirator?" :eyepatch: :joker:

Deke is decoy. Besides, we deceive the casinos all the time. If they ask you if you're counting, what do you tell them?

Dealers are trained to do their job in a certain way and if they fail to, it is at their peril. The most profitable one is when a dealer shows you their cards. If they are dealing properly this will never happen. If they're not, there are people who consider HC to be cheating but it really isn't and the courts have upheld this, even in Nevada. Likewise a good dealer is going to wait until they get a non-ambiguous signal before they expose a card and if they try to anticipate, they are the one who did something wrong.

Now other shots like twiddling thumbs with the dealer, I agree, that crosses a line and is more like being a pickpocket. OK, I don't do this very often and probably shouldn't do it at all. Probably most of us have done things that would give other AP's pause. I know a couple of very good players, clean as a whistle at the table but they play and accept comps on fake ID, which makes even me nervous.

Regarding the NV definition of cheating posted by Sucker: wow there are all kinds of ways you can interpret that. Under a literal reading counting would be cheating, when we know it is not. Everything we do, we do to increase the amount and frequency of payouts.

I for one am always careful to avert my eyes should the dealer flash his hole card. If I do catch a glimpse, I either try with all my might to block its memory out of my conscious mind, or raise my hand and tell the Pit Boss what has transpired. If he allows me to play, I still try to play my hand as if I did not have knowledge of the dealer's hole card. If I do win, and it is partly due to my inside knowledge, I immediately leave the game, go to the nearest Catholic Church, and go to confession. :angel:

Hey, folks, this is not a biggie! If it makes you feel bad, don't do it. In the grand scheme of things, it's something like going through some stingy millionaire's garbage can that is sitting on their driveway for a bite to eat without their permission. :whip: :laugh:

 

[Sucker]

If I do win, and it is partly due to my inside knowledge, I immediately leave the game, go to the nearest Catholic Church, and go to confession. :angel:

And MOST IMPORTANTLY, don't forget to give back the money that you won.