How many of you are still playing BJ ?

[john]

I am really discouraged. It wasn't the fact that I had another losing trip. I didn't lose that much and know why I lost. I lost because I didn't get in enough playing time. Why ? I could go on for 5 pages about why.

Something scared the crap out of me this week.

I got trespassed. I got trespassed from 2 casinos. The whole damn deal. The only thing the casino didn't or forgot to do was call in the SWAT team. This makes me sound like I was cleaning up and raking in the money left and right. I wasn't. I was up a little when it happened. This wasn't about profits, it was personal. I believe my picture has been faxed to casinos in that whole area. When I go to a casino now around there, they give me 25 - 50 % penetration now on a 6 deck shoe. It didn't used to be like that. They might as well be dealing out of a csm.

I had a problem at a 3rd one that I can't really discuss.

I am pretty new at this. When I was trespassed, I was at the table/casino for 20 minutes. It happened on I think the 3rd shoe. Actually, that was the last shoe I was going to play and then I was going to leave. They got me by a few hands.

I didn't go into much detail about exactly what happened because I'm not sure I should. I'm never going back there again, but just don't know what I can say and what I can't. The good thing is that it was kind of a sh**hole.

In my opinion, those higher-ups at that casino were idiots. I took about two hundred dollars off of them, but do you know how many people witnessed that huge scene. Do you know how many ploppies were sitting at that table and surrounding tables that absolutely couldn't have missed that scene ? If a pitboss would have whispered in my ear, "we would like you to leave now", I would have left. Those pitbosses were gutless.

To all the casino personnel reading this, thanks for the money guys.

 

[Abraham de Moivre]

What State?

You might be able to build your roll for several months, and go back and hit them harder. Some one here might have some experience with your location.

Welcome to the club. Buy a hat and some sun glasses.

 

[john]

What state ? No comment

Abraham,

I shouldn't say the state. I'll e-mail it to you. If I say the state, casino personnel read this...well that makes it too easy for them. [email protected] (my new e-mail)

You know what they say about what doesn't kill us. I was just shocked by the whole thing. You would have thought that I was wanted for murder. I even thought about getting the motel room under another name. haha

Another thing, the Mayor said that he doesn't believe casino personnel read this. I think a majority don't but I believe that there are those that do. Where would all this hostility come from ?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

That's pretty extreme

To be trespassed like that as soon as you walk into the casino? Normally there should be several polite backoffs and any-game-but-blackjack before they ban you from the premises. Did they rough you, or try to backroom you?

The reaon I ask is that they might have thought you were a cheater or criminal rather than a counter because the treatment you got is what I would expect them to get. Some of these security people lump cheats, crooks, and advantage players all together. Did they give any verbal justification for their actions?

 

[The Mayor]

Sad...

>Another thing, the Mayor said that he doesn't believe casino personnel read this. I think a majority don't but I believe that there are those that do. Where would all this hostility come from ?

I never said that casino management does not read this site. I said they do not identify players from what they read.

As for the hostility, welcome to the game! It is absurd. But, the hostility has nothing to do with these web sites. Such hostility has been going on for over 30 years, long before the Internet and blackjack web sites. I suggest you (re)read Cellini's essays to get some idea about the idiots who run casino security.

I am sorry about your tresspasses. Were you read the tresspass act? Or were you just asked to leave and told not to return? It is extremely hostile for a low level player at a shoe game playing solo to get such treatment.

--Mayor

 

[john]

leading up to this

I appreciate your responses.

Leading up to all this, when I've used my players' card at some places, I've gotten dealers taking a step backward when they swiped it through and their eyes opening wide. I'm not kidding. I try to notice people a little more than I used to. It went something like this. This was about 2 trips ago.

I give dealer my card. She asks PB if he wants it. PB says "no,I don't need it". Dealer swipes the card through the machine. Her eyes light up. She looks at the PB then he comes over and looks at the machine and she says, "Do you want it now?" . He says, "yes, I'll take that."

Just thought that was something wierd that happened. I was going to ask the dealer my balance but didn't. For the rest of the time at the table, the dealer seemed to consistently check the amount of my bets. She would take them and spread them out then stack them up again in the circle. She didn't do it to anyone else and she was checking 15 dollar wagers which I thought was odd.

Automatic,

Yeah, they read me the trespass act. 4 security guards approached me from behind while I was playing. Asked me for my ID. I was reluctant because I remember what the mayor said. I was also intimidated. I got up out of my chair and faced them. I said, "You want my ID ? Why do you need my ID?" They said, "We just need it." I reluctantly gave it to them. The first guy takes my ID and gives it to somebody else. I said, "Hey, aren't you going to give my ID back?" He says, "You'll get it back. I need you to gather up your chips and come with me. We are going to let you cash them out at the cashier's cage." I said, "What's wrong ?"

Keep in mind, the game is still going on. He tells me to keep playing and finish my hands. I pick up my chips and he tells me to go to the cashiers cage. I give them my chips and they count it, then the 4 security guards take me outside and read me the trespass act. They tell me I'm not allowed at any other casinos owned by such and such. They said I couldn't go to this other casino that they owned. I said Ok.

Oh yeah, I was backed off last week, too at a place near where I was trespassed. I wasn't trespassed then but there was a long conversation between me and the PB.

 

[john]

Reading something off a card

Maybe they didn't read me the trespass act. They read something off a card, though. Anyone know what the trespass act sounds like? The guy read it off so fast that I can't remember what exactly he said. Also, no PB or other casino personnel were around, just security guards.

 

[Royam]

You've got mail

 

[learning to count]

You should have gathered your chips and left.

If you walk towards the door what can they do. If they grab you dont resist. Ask for the police. Dont give them any thing. When the cops come cooperate with them and ask to speak to a lawyer. I would even dare to attempt fate with the cops. If they ask for ID. Tell them this is questioning and you want an attorney. Just dont be a smarta$$. Be polite and cooperative up to a point. If they arrest you they still nee probable cause. I dont see it happening. If it does geta good civil rights attorney and sue sue sue!!!!

The previous thread on the police having the right to ID a person goes back to the original rules of investigating a loitering and prowling case. They still have several investigative issues that show a need for suspecting a crime. In short they need a identifiable reason of why they need to see your ID. In the past it was easier to ask/order a person to ID themselves. This was tightened up and now it was loosened. A law enforcement officer still cannot go and order anyone to ID them selves at his whim. There is still a legal map to follow when doing so.

As far as the casinom blackball well you better find other avenues to play. Goodluck

 

[john]

They are questioning me

and I'm doubling 9 v 6 's . haha

I should have split the tens just for the hell of it.

Also, I finally hit a hard 17. I got a 4 for a 21 !! This was at another joint after the trespass. Then I had a 13 and I said "Eight !" and she gave me an eight. I should stopping doing that stuff because that will get me in trouble. I didn't know an eight was coming just guessing you know.

 

[The Mayor]

LTC is right

They have no right to see your ID or to prevent you from gathering your chips and leaving. If they question you, just ask if you are suspected of committing a crime. If they say yes, ask for the police to be called. If they say no, just leave.

--Mayor

 

[Cyrano]

Cops and IDs *LINK*

There was a case this last supreme court session where the justices ruled that a cop has a right to see your id. Note: this case was from NEVADA...

 

[Automatic Monkey]

So what you are telling me...

... is that you are now banned from Caesar's properties.

"Render unto Caesar what belongeth to Caesar..."

The problem seems to be centered around your player's card. This is exactly the outfit that booted me from the table last week claiming that I was a self-barred player. You sound like a good candidate for fake playing ID's.

Be careful out there. Remember that an average card counter is more intelligent than the smartest person working on a casino floor, and for the same reason that the smart kids get picked on in school, they have a certain resentment towards us. See if it were me in your situation, surrounded by security guards, I would have put my cheques in my pocket, cursed a blue streak at them, and walked right out the door. That works best in a venue that accepts foreign chip, just play them someplace else. But not all at once- last week I tried to exchange about $1K in foreign chip and they called the store that issued them. If this happens to you your rep as a counter might follow you around via that phone call.

Think of it this way- the worst that can happen to you in these situations is not all that bad.

 

[john]

We'll see...

I got another trip planned next week. It is going to be my biggest ever. I am going to try to take more from these guys than I ever have and then take a 2 - 3 month break. Hopefully, I will be able to play blackjack.

Automatic,

I don't react that way to those situations. Not sure why. To me, it is probably was of more damage to the Casinos by being "the nice guy". You see, when I sat down and got a blackjack on a 6 unit green. The guys were rooting me on and they liked me. That is usually the way it is. Security comes in, they have already established me in their minds as a decent fellow, and they don't understand why I am being escorted out. I didn't plan to be peaceful or anything but that is just my nature. How many of those ploppies do you think were making 6 unit green bets after I left ?

I think security wanted to really piss me off so I would retaliate by screaming and arguing. Then they can say, "See, this guy is a real menace. We had to escort him out for being so violent."

What did the pit bosses have to say was the reason for escorting me out? I was being cordial to everyone: security, ploppies, pit bosses. I flat out asked security what was wrong and he had no answer for me. The ploppies heard me ask this. I think they may have lost more than I took on that day. They lost probably 15 - 20 customers in my opinion and maybe more because those customers will tell others. Ploppies may think, "Last time I was there. There was a major security problem. I never had a problem at such and such place." and so they decide to go there instead.

 

[LV Bear]

Mistakes from inexperience

Others have already pointed out the big mstake of giving in to casino guards' demands for ID. Just say NO, politely but firmly. Do NOT go to the cage, head directly for the exit.

Oh yeah, I was backed off last week, too at a place near where I was trespassed. I wasn't trespassed then but there was a long conversation between me and the PB.

Don't have a long conversation with a pit boss when you are being backed off. There is nothing to gain by talking with them at that point. Simply take your chips and leave.

Hassles from casino personnel become routine after a while. Learn from this, and move on. You are now better prepared for the next confrontation.

 

[The Mayor]

Not in this case

Casino security does not have police authority. They can detain you until the police arrive if they suspect you of a crime, and then the police can request the ID (as in the case you quote -- sadly it is getting too easy for the police), but casino security has no right to any information about you whatsoever, in any context. And, they can only detain you if you are suspected of committing a crime, and card counting is not a crime. There have been several large lawsuits brought against casinos for detaining counters. I doubt any casino would take the chance of that bad publicity again just because you are counting cards. They might be idiots, but when it comes to money, they're not stupid.

--Mayor

 

[learning to count]

Mayor's right and further more...

"...where the justices ruled that a cop has a right to see your id."

The cops have to have a suspicion that you have committed a crime, that you are about to commit a crime, or you are committing a crime. For example A cop is driving down a dark street in an expensive nighborhood and a person dressed in black is standing behind a mail box in the shadows. The cop has the right to stop and investigate and ask for Identification. This with other info may stop the suspicion the cop has about the person. We counters need to be educated about our rights. We also have to know how to handle ourselves when we are approached by casino a$$holes. A lot of counters I know are aggressive and want to fight. Keep calm, no big arm movements, and walk fast. Rememeber the security training program for the casino bullies is learned in the weightroom. You will lose if you try and be aggressive. Your brain and your ability to communicate is your best weapon. Counting is like skindiving use the buddy system. Remember your carrying lots of cash and you are a target for the casino goons and thieves. Try and have a trusted counter friend with you. I travel with close freinds and family. MHO LTC

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Fighting security guards

Weightroom? The uniformed security guards I've seen have all looked like goofball college kids or senior citizens. Maybe they have other guys in the back who are physically formidable, I don't know, but I can't remember seeing a security guard in a casino that I would guess could beat me in a fight.

But that doesn't mean I am planning on fighting! I'll cuss and pitch a fit as part of my act and they'll never be sure whether I'm a counter or just an enraged ploppy. I try to imagine what a drunken, crude businessman who wasn't a counter but having a good winning streak would do if he was told to leave, and I do that. But you're right, using your hands in an 86 situation is just a stupid thing to do. You can count on jail time if you do that. We're there to make money, not prove a point.

The only time I would fight is if I thought they were really going to injure me, or forcibly backroom me. Remember that there are many security guards who wanted to be cops but couldn't pass the psychological tests and also a few who were fired from the police department for being bad guys, so if a guard starts clubbing me or dragging me I'm going to think the guy is a renegade or having some kind of psychiatric episode, and I'm going to fight for my life. If they're going to injure or kill me, they're going to have to do it under the cameras and in front of witnesses.

 

[The Mayor]

The benefit of good genes

>but I can't remember seeing a security guard in a casino that I would guess could beat me in a fight.

I can't remember seeing a wet paper bag that I could beat in a fight.

 

[phantom007]

You are ALL Wrong!.....JUST HAVE A SEIZURE!

To date, I have been flushed "out of the pocket" many times, Flat Bet once, and AGBBJ (any game but BJ) once. This listing does NOT include the multiple survelience's and Dealer-Switches....since I tip, Dealers usually TELL ME when the table is under survelience.

How do they know? At least in Tunica, my primary haunt, the Dealer's and Survellience personel share the SAME breakroom! On numerous occasions, "my" Dealer has left for his/her break, then came back and said to me in a low voice "survellience", or just simply shuffled every round, and in both cases, I just raise and lower my bet in random fashion.

However, WHEN SURROUNDED by Security Personnel, my plan is to "JUST HAVE A SEIZURE". Roll in the floor, piss in my pants, bite my tongue, etc. If they deny me ambulance/medical care, +MT's (Mega-Torts)...my insurance will pay for the ambulance and ER visit...and HOPEFULLY, I will break something when I fall.

GRIN!

phantom007.