How to play 7 player tables well?

[dacium]

I always play the box before the dealer so I have best count before he draws. But the problem I am having is that the variance is far to high at 7 player tables.

By the time 15 cards are delt to other players and the dealer the count has usually changed significantly and im left having to take huge variance. To combat this I am wonging big time. Trying to avoid any 0 zero counts let along negetive so I don't have to spread as high. Im doing 1 units from +1 +4 and two from 4 to 8 and 3 above. What would be my expected house advantage here for 6 deck DAS only split once double 9 10 11.

I have dropped 50 units or more in quite a few sessions of only 3-4 shoes and I am thinking of giving up on blackjack. I am just ahead overall by about 10 units, I dunno do you guys actually keep at this and make money? I have fun doing it but there is no point if im not really playing to win money, I can play for fake money anywhere on any software.

 

[TENNBEAR]

I simply do not play full tables. I have to drive five hours to get to the nearest casino, so overnight stay is always warraneted. I simply stop playing when the casino gets crowded on Saturday night, goof off and spend time with my wife we play a little roulett togeather, then I will turn in early. I will get up and return to the casino around 4:30AM, fresh, rested and ready to play when the crowds are gone. Ideal play for me is with two other players at the table, the early marning hours are when I find the best playing conditions.

 

[sagefr0g]

about full tables....

full tables unfortunately may another thing to add to the list when considering is this particular game worth playing or not .
see link below:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=17212&postcount=1

i'll still play a relatively full table myself but i make the effort to pick a table with as few players as possible. i suppose a full table pretty much turns out to be a stuck in the mud spinning your wheels sort of situation.

best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[Preston]

When the blackjack tables are all crowded that is when I switch to poker.

It helps to be versatile in the game you play and once you get a poker seat you can stay as long as you want, pending you don't go broke.

 

[sagefr0g]

When the blackjack tables are all crowded that is when I switch to poker.

It helps to be versatile in the game you play and once you get a poker seat you can stay as long as you want, pending you don't go broke.

how difficult is it to learn to be a good poker player as compared to the difficulty level of becomming a good blackjack player?

best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[ihate17]

The best way to play a 7 spot table

Is when 5 or 6 spots are empty!

Have you tried visiting on their slowest hours?

ihate17

 

[EasyRhino]

Couple of weeks ago, on a Saturday night, was backcounting a table with 5-6 players. The dealer had a couple of harsh hands in a row, and the entire tale exited. The count wasn't quite positive, but it was getting very close, so I figured I'd play heads up.

After playing for a bit, a few more players joined in, and something else happened (maybe another "cheap' hand, or maybe the shuffle) and all the new people left again, and I think the count was starting to get good again too.

I really liked that dealer.

As for full tables, I don't really mind them that much. I'll still get plenty of chance to practice my skills, and it slows down my variance (at least in terms of $/hr). I'm not too concerned about my hourly wage equivalency yet. Also, a table full of ploppies, some betting big, seems like it would provide more cover than heads up play.

 

[Preston]

how difficult is it to learn to be a good poker player as compared to the difficulty level of becomming a good blackjack player?

best regards,
mr fr0g

Honestly, I played poker long before I even thought about playing blackjack. In fact, the entire reason I first sat down at a blackjack table was because I was in Omaha NE and the wait for the poker room was 4 hours and I felt like gambling.

I prefer blackjack. I prefer it because it is more mechanical, and I'm not playing against a maniac, I am playing against a robot known as the dealer. I can do a "hit and run" where during a long drive I can stop at a casino, make $100 wonging, and get back on the road in less than a couple hours.

Learning blackjack has helped my poker game, and I know that knowing poker has helped me at blackjack.

The biggest difference, aside from the games themselves, is the fact that in BJ you are playing against the house. In poker you are playing against other players. Play enough poker, and you start to "read" your opponents. Nearly everyone has some sort of "tell" they give out as to the nature of their hand, these vary from the way they "protect" their cards or the way they place their chips in the pot. Tells are the first thing I'm looking for when I first sit down at the poker table.

This has helped my BJ game immensely... a lot of newer dealers, and some of the older ones will give out a tell. One of the most common I have run into is this:

Dealer shows a 10, and has to check for a blackjack. If they have a pat hand they often times will take a short glance and see that it is not an A. Often times if they are looking for the A in the hole, and have a smaller card (6 or lower) they will stare for a half second longer. It's very slight but there have been times I have ignored the count because of this tell.

Becoming a good BJ player has been pure math. There is a set system to use in every situation. Not so in poker. You don't play the same hand the same way twice. A poker player there are pot odds as well, but you also have to figure in the way your opponent plays. If I'm playing against the tightest player in the world I am going to play accordingly.. same thing goes for when I'm playing a maniac who raises with anything.

In all honestly, it was easier to learn the basic principles of blackjack, but it has been more difficult once I got into counting and started taking it seriously.

Blackjack is also non-stop action. You get involved in every hand.

Poker can get boring at times. I've sat at a poker table for 4 hours straight before and not played any hands outside of posting blinds. And 4 hours at a BJ table can be expensive, but those 4 hours waiting for a good hand at a poker table, depending on blinds, might cost me $50.

I don't know if you really wanted a full comparison of the two, but I think of all the games in the casino, BJ and Poker are the best as far as they are the only two games I see where you can have an advantage based upon your skill level.

If you really are interested in playing poker yon start online. Fulltiltpoker.com is still accepting American players and they offer a 100% sign up bonus.. but it will take forever to work it off. Also, they give $25 for referrals and those referred, so if you send me your email I'll send a referall your way if you're interested. They also offer play money games and tourneys.

 

[ScottH]

how difficult is it to learn to be a good poker player as compared to the difficulty level of becomming a good blackjack player?

best regards,
mr fr0g

It will take a lot longer to become a winning poker player than a winning blackjack player. Almost anyone can become a winning blackjack player since it's pretty much just memorization, but poker involves some actual decision making at the table.

 

[PokerJunky]

If you want to learn poker start playing the low level limit games of 2/4. Limit is a lot more mathematical than No Limit and you can learn the value of the hands. Just learn how to calculate pot odds and your on your way. Read "Super System" by Doyle Brunson, it's the bible on playing poker. The key to learn poker is playing lots and lots of hands to get familiar w/ the different situations. Plus if you get good, you can play online and make some nice side income from your home.

This past weekend I started playing poker, to a horrible beat and then went out to the BJ and backcounted. Made back some of my losses.

 

[dacium]

Ive been playing holdem poker long before blackjack.

At first only 5/10 limit was offered and at the casinos near me they are really big tourist areas so lots of fish. The problem I had was schooling was massive. I would wait for premium hands because EVERY round except the river was always capped betting usually with 4-6 players at least, usually everyone would see the flop. A kept going to flop on Ax hoping for flush draws, I got 4 draws and missed them all, ended up lossing over $400 just chasing those draws, each pot was easily about $250-$300. I found the variance in the game so high and the schooling so huge that playing anything (even pairs) apart from Ax suited or suit connectors was pointless. AA KK etc were vertually useless against 7 players schooled into the flop. I even went upto 10/20 and saw the same thing.

I am considering going back but I think I worked out I really needed a bankroll of 15k and I don't have that much money. I could probably do $3k, so right now I play online, which is next to impossible to win money in limit. So I play the very non mathematical and highly lucky no limit.

 

[ScottH]

Ive been playing holdem poker long before blackjack.

At first only 5/10 limit was offered and at the casinos near me they are really big tourist areas so lots of fish. The problem I had was schooling was massive. I would wait for premium hands because EVERY round except the river was always capped betting usually with 4-6 players at least, usually everyone would see the flop. A kept going to flop on Ax hoping for flush draws, I got 4 draws and missed them all, ended up lossing over $400 just chasing those draws, each pot was easily about $250-$300. I found the variance in the game so high and the schooling so huge that playing anything (even pairs) apart from Ax suited or suit connectors was pointless. AA KK etc were vertually useless against 7 players schooled into the flop. I even went upto 10/20 and saw the same thing.

I am considering going back but I think I worked out I really needed a bankroll of 15k and I don't have that much money. I could probably do $3k, so right now I play online, which is next to impossible to win money in limit. So I play the very non mathematical and highly lucky no limit.

5/10 is too high of limits to start playing at. Any higher than 5/10 and you will start to see pros and semi-pro players.

 

[Preston]

5/10 limit is really not that high of stakes. Generally more fish play limit. and usually 5/10 is as high as they will go.

I usually play 4/8 or 5/10 limit however, I am not afraiad to play 8/16, 10/20, and sometimes even 15/30. I think No limit is actually easier.

I say that because you can BET the STRENGTH of your hand. With limit too many people call down to the river. AA isn't that good of a hand and you can't push all-in pre-flop if you need to.

Yeah, you can lose your entire stack. That's why reading players comes to mind.

Start with very low stakes just to learn the basics. I think it actually gets a little easier at the higher stakes. You don't have fish calling a raise with J 5 hearts "because it was suited"

 

[ScottH]

I don't understand why everyone complains about fish calling with J5s. You WANT your opponents to play badly. You will lose more often to bad beats, but your EV will be much higher against those players.

5/10 limit is really not that high of stakes. Generally more fish play limit. and usually 5/10 is as high as they will go.

I usually play 4/8 or 5/10 limit however, I am not afraiad to play 8/16, 10/20, and sometimes even 15/30. I think No limit is actually easier.

I say that because you can BET the STRENGTH of your hand. With limit too many people call down to the river. AA isn't that good of a hand and you can't push all-in pre-flop if you need to.

Yeah, you can lose your entire stack. That's why reading players comes to mind.

Start with very low stakes just to learn the basics. I think it actually gets a little easier at the higher stakes. You don't have fish calling a raise with J 5 hearts "because it was suited"

 

[Automatic Monkey]

...Start with very low stakes just to learn the basics. I think it actually gets a little easier at the higher stakes. You don't have fish calling a raise with J 5 hearts "because it was suited"

That's true. I'm no poker expert, but I do know that if a lot of people are chasing, someone is going to catch, and your two pair aren't going to help you. You might make more in such a game but the variance is going to be higher and high variance is not what a journeyman poker player is looking for.

 

[ScottH]

That's true. I'm no poker expert, but I do know that if a lot of people are chasing, someone is going to catch, and your two pair aren't going to help you. You might make more in such a game but the variance is going to be higher and high variance is not what a journeyman poker player is looking for.

The increased variance is just fine with the HUGE EV boost that fish give you. If you KNEW you could get away with a 1-10 spread in a 1 deck would you opt not to because it would increase your variance?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

The increased variance is just fine with the HUGE EV boost that fish give you. If you KNEW you could get away with a 1-10 spread in a 1 deck would you opt not to because it would increase your variance?

Yes, I would opt not to if 10X the minimum bet increased my RoR to an unacceptable level. For you can't win if you don't play, and if you run out of money, you can't play. This is a lesson I learned painfully holecarding at a non-BJ game that gave me a very large advantage but even larger variance.

The good news is that you are going to find those fish at the low stakes tables where you can afford the swings.

 

[PokerJunky]

From my experience your not going to see 5-6 people capping the bets pre-flop EVERY hand. You'll see the aggressive players out there who raise everything, especially w/ position, but you have to notice that and adjust your game. If you can't beat the low limit poker games (2/4, 3/6, 4/8, 5/10) don't think that you'll do better because at a higher limit they play CORRECTLY and don't chase. The ploppie will play off your flush and not the skilled player.

Players' skill level rises considerably as the limits increase and you'll find many of the local pro/semi-pro players at these games. Poker, like everything else, requires practice. Some players will learn quicker than others.

Give me a table w/ inexperienced players anytime. They'll draw out on me a few times, but in the long run I will have +EV.

 

[ScottH]

The good news is that you are going to find those fish at the low stakes tables where you can afford the swings.

The low stake games are acutally harder to beat than the medium stake games because the rake is too high of a percentage of the pot size. The rake usually gets capped at a certain point, so in higher stakes the rake becomes meaningless to the pot size, but in small stakes, the rake kills your EV.

 

[Cardcounter]

It is bad game!!!

A six deck shoe game almost always will let you double down on any two cards not just 9-10-11. Losing your soft doubling option is a bad choice for you especially when you have to contend with six decks. Second a full table on a shoe does not swing the count all that much because you are usually dividing the count by 4-5-6 if you where playing a single deck game with 6-7 people the counts might run extreme. But what is wrong with counts running extreme? In my opinion abosulutely nothing because extreme in your favor is good.