I felt sorry for the ploppy...

[21forme]

I was backcounting a table where one player was sitting. He had a substantial pile of black chips in front of him. Low cards were coming out in a way I never saw before. He was losing just about every hand (playing two at a time) and doing some kind of progression betting. He depleted his bankroll just about the time the count was right for me to sit down.

I start playing and and win just about every hand dealt. He asks the PC for another marker. About the time I'm ramped up to 10 units, doubling down, pulling a few BJs, etc., the PC comes back and tells him he can't give him another marker. He continues watching me until the shoe ends, and I'm up about 70 units. Then he gets up and leaves. My luck was as good as his was bad and I really did feel sorry for him, despite his own stupidity with the betting.

 

[xxrenegadexx]

it must have been phfatginny...

 

[tribute]

Backcounting

Please help me understand backcounting. Do you wait until the count gets positive, or, do you jump in when you THINK it is about to turn? Also, after you win a few hands after seeing high cards, doesn't the count deteriorate fairly rapidly?

 

[xxrenegadexx]

Please help me understand backcounting. Do you wait until the count gets positive, or, do you jump in when you THINK it is about to turn? Also, after you win a few hands after seeing high cards, doesn't the count deteriorate fairly rapidly?

backcounting is just that... you stand behind the table until you get a nice count.... sit down... continue to count.... when it goes down get up and go to the bathroom

 

[sagefr0g]

Please help me understand backcounting. Do you wait until the count gets positive, or, do you jump in when you THINK it is about to turn? Also, after you win a few hands after seeing high cards, doesn't the count deteriorate fairly rapidly?

no sir not when you think it's about to turn. go in when the true count is about plus two. and yes the count can deteriorate fairly rapidly but shoe games are supposed to hold a count longer than single and two deck games.

 

[eps6724]

yes the count can deteriorate fairly rapidly but shoe games are supposed to hold a count longer than single and two deck games.

This I understand. Are there some math charts that might show just how much of a difference there is-and how this would affect the bottom line? And is there a way to take advantage of this? And what would the pros-and-cons be of playing both types of games (in respect to comparing the two based upon the volatility of the count?)

Thanks
-EPS

 

[21forme]

Please help me understand backcounting. Do you wait until the count gets positive, or, do you jump in when you THINK it is about to turn? Also, after you win a few hands after seeing high cards, doesn't the count deteriorate fairly rapidly?

I use KO. With 6D, I usually sit down when RC = -4 (IRC = -20) Sometimes I'll wait a hand or two to see which way it's going.

Sometimes the count starts to drop right away. Other times it stays put or continues to go up.


xxrenegadexx said: it must have been phfatginny...

First, he's been banned for 3 days, so he can't respond (not that we want him to respond.) Second, how about playing nice?

 

[positiveEV]

This I understand. Are there some math charts that might show just how much of a difference there is-and how this would affect the bottom line? And is there a way to take advantage of this? And what would the pros-and-cons be of playing both types of games (in respect to comparing the two based upon the volatility of the count?)

Thanks
-EPS

When you get a low card in a 6 deck game, your true count drops of a little bit less than 1/6. When the same thing happen in a 1 deck game, your true count drops of a little bit more than 1. You will get more high counts in a 1 deck game but in a 6 decks game it will last longer. Also, your peeks will be much higher in a 1 deck game. The bad thing is that if you want to spread accordingly, you will be much more obvious. In a 6 deck show, the count won't rise or go down that quick, therefore people won't see you change bet dramatically every round.

 

[eps6724]

In a 6 deck show, the count won't rise or go down that quick, therefore people won't see you change bet dramatically every round.

Would you, then, be better off ramping slowly? For instance, if using an unbalanced count the count jumps-say, to a +4 from 0, would it be any advantage to jump immediately to your max bet, or ramp to it?

 

[sagefr0g]

This I understand. Are there some math charts that might show just how much of a difference there is-and how this would affect the bottom line? And is there a way to take advantage of this? And what would the pros-and-cons be of playing both types of games (in respect to comparing the two based upon the volatility of the count?)

Thanks
-EPS

the appendix of Professional Blackjack by Stanford Wong has some true count distribution charts for various packs.
it's known that single deck and double deck are better games than six and eight deck games as long as the rules and penetration are right.
since the count is more volatile for the single and double deck games you get more opportunities to take advantage of high true counts. the six and eight deck games present advantageous counts rarely in comparison to single and double deck games.

 

[zengrifter]

...shoe games are supposed to hold a count longer than single and two deck games.

I don't thik that statement is accurate. Anyone else? zg

 

[zengrifter]

...Sometimes I'll wait a hand or two to see which way it's going. -- Sometimes the count starts to drop right away. Other times it stays put or continues to go up.

Your statement make no logical sense! zg

 

[21forme]

Your statement make no logical sense! zg

I've wonged into shoes, played one or two hands, then the count drops to the point where I'd bet 1 unit or even wong back out. I prefer to stay at a table for a bit after wonging in, so if I wait for the count to go a bit higher, then I'm more likely to have a greater number of advantageous hands to play.

What doesn't make sense?

 

[sagefr0g]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sagefr0g View Post
...shoe games are supposed to hold a count longer than single and two deck games.

I don't thik that statement is accurate. Anyone else? zg

here's what i'm going by with that statement.
according to Renzey in Blackjack Bluebook II page 134...
"In a six deck game the distribution of high and low cards remains pretty even about 60% of the time. During these stretches the house enjoys an edge of about 1/2%. Another 20% of the time, there are a lot of little cards left and the house advantage swells to an average of about 2%. During the remaining 20% of the time, there's a surplus of high cards and the player actually has an advantage averaging about 1%.
With single deck, the shifting percentages are more dramatic. The player will have the advantage on the next hand about one-third of the time and by a larger margin. Why is this? Since the player only has an edge when the composition of the remaining cards gets out of kilter, the fewer cards that are involved, the more easily it can happen.
Picture it this way. Let's say you were going to flip three coins in the air, and in order to win they had to come down at least two thirds heads. This would happen succcessfully 50% of the time. But if you threw 30 coins into the air and still needed two-thirds heads, you'd only get the 20 needed heads 5% of the time. You see with so many more coins falling the distribution of heads and tails would hang closer to 50-50. This is how the house beings to insulate itself from card coutners when they use multi-deck shoes."

another way of saying it is that the count is more volatile for single and double deck games than six and eight deck games.

 

[ScottH]

I don't thik that statement is accurate. Anyone else? zg

I think it is on the right track. The swings in the count are less drastic in a shoe game compared to a single deck or double deck game. Therefore if the count is low it will be low for a while, if the count is really high, it will stay high for a while. With a single deck game the count can go from sky-high to negative in just one hand. So with fewer decks the count evens out faster than with many decks.

 

[EasyRhino]

Yeah, once in a while I feel compassion for the humans too. Was sitting next to a ploppy (on my left) a couple weeks ago who just was having horrible luck whenever he doubled-down or split. I started even joking with him about it, saying things like "wait, if you're about to double, then that means there's a deuce on deck, so I should hit my 17?".

However, he played a little bit like a dope. In fact, when at one point in the table, while attempting to explain the nature of variance to the other ploppies, he said "I've probably played more hands of blackjack than anyone else at this table". To which I desperately wanted to respond: "Dude, I've probably played more hands of black jack in the last six months than you have in your life".

But I didn't, because I'm such a sweetheart.

edit: when backcounting, (also KO) I try to wait until the running count goes a few steps beyond the pivot. I don't want to wong in to a table and then immediately wong out, I'd rather be able to place elevated bets for a while. This is especially true if I'm at a place that will limit my table-hopping for the evening.