If the shoe was on the other foot------?

[Billy C1]

How would WE treat AP's if we owned the joint? Easy answer right? Just like the casinos do! Not always.
An acquaintence of mine was recently 86'd (tresspassed) at a midwestern store for his card counting prowess. Not unusual but----------this guy has such a fetish (addiction may be more fitting) for video poker that 80-90% of his time was spent playing $1 6-5 flat top JOB vp, which is a BIG minus EV, at this same house.
His skilled BJ game was at 5-500 tables and his spread appeared to stay in the 1-15 to 1-20 range. From the many times I observed, he always bet the minimum until he saw the prize. I never saw more than $100 max bet by him.
There's no good answer to why he would even learn how to be a BJAP and spend way more time doing VPDP. Maybe he figured he'd hedge his losses this way being he was such a vp junkie.
His expected win rate at BJ was dwarfed by his expected loss rate at VP. He wouldn't have been 86'd at my house.

BillyC1

 

[kewljason]

How would WE treat AP's if we owned the joint? Easy answer right? Just like the casinos do! Not always.
An acquaintence of mine was recently 86'd (tresspassed) at a midwestern store for his card counting prowess. Not unusual but----------this guy has such a fetish (addiction may be more fitting) for video poker that 80-90% of his time was spent playing $1 6-5 flat top JOB vp, which is a BIG minus EV, at this same house.
His skilled BJ game was at 5-500 tables and his spread appeared to stay in the 1-15 to 1-20 range. From the many times I observed, he always bet the minimum until he saw the prize. I never saw more than $100 max bet by him.
There's no good answer to why he would even learn how to be a BJAP and spend way more time doing VPDP. Maybe he figured he'd hedge his losses this way being he was such a vp junkie.
His expected win rate at BJ was dwarfed by his expected loss rate at VP. He wouldn't have been 86'd at my house.

BillyC1

I would offer a very mediocre game with very average rules. Not good enough that all the 'pros' would flock to the game and not bad enough to drive away the ploppies. Penetration would be good enough to minimize the down time of shuffling, but not so good as to attract all the deep penetration seeking pros. I would not concern myself with small stakes AP's like red chipper or even green chippers. I think having some winning patrons is good for business. I would instruct management to only concern themselves with blackchip players and/or team concept, which would free them up to concentrate more on cheating, both inside and outside jobs.

 

[creeping panther]

Billy C-1

Billy,

Now that is one very very stupid casino.:laugh:

CP

 

[tensplitter]

I'd sell books teaching how to count cards in the casino gift shop. It's better to attract more amateur counters that don't understand the concept of RoR.

 

[blackchipjim]

Casino administration 101

I would fall back on the tried and true credo." Trust the math" Casinos fail because of greed and mismanagement not because of some players abilities. The casinos bring themselves down by poor games and poor customer service. I would love to wear their shoes and show them how to cater to depositers to my fine establishment. I would treat you so well that you would look forward to losing your money at my joint and come away feeling good. There are not enough aps in the US to hurt me and the ones that could I would ask to cut it back or you will be asked to leave not thrown out like the trash.

 

[moo321]

I'd offer very liberal rules with massively deep pen. I'd probably hit soft 17, but the shoes would be dealt down to 3/4 of a deck, and there'd be late surrender even on the pitch games. I swear for every card counter surrendering 14 v. X at a high count there be 100 ploppies surrendering 13 vs. 7.

I definitely wouldn't restrict doubling; for everyone gaining a little from a soft double, there's dozens of clowns doubling 8 vs. 3 at neutral counts, or 9 vs. 7, or A2 vs. 2.

 

[shadroch]

I'd allow doubling on any three cards and have Dealer Surrender
where a player can take half his bet when the dealer is showing a ten and the player has 20.
I'd throw in an optional sidebet where for a buck a hand, you get to spin a wheel after a BJ that pays you anywhere from $5 to $50.
Every time a dealer got a BJ, players that don't tie gets a coupon for a drawing. At 6Pm and 1AM, winners get $50 in one time $5promo chips.

 

[Jack_Black]

My $.02

This is all conjecture, but I think I have the casino business figured out. I've noticed that the sweaty joints are usually the ones that don't have a lot of traffic to begin with. Whatever the reason, bad games, slow area, bigger competition, or a combination of said problems, will hurt the casino(and for any type of business for that matter) making management act irrationally. I can think of a few places that sweat any kind of winners, AP, lucky SOB, stupid Ploppy. So the name of my casino game would have to be extra liberal rules. I also wouldn't do the venture without serious backing. It would have to be the biggest or close to the biggest kid on the block kinda joint. Something along the lines of bringing the vegas strip feel to a state that has some potential for gambling growth.

highly modern rooms, some B list chefs contracted for the dining. Not Wolfgang puck, or Nobu, but maybe a chef reality show winner. Put it next to some prime scenery like a lake, ocean, mountain. and then......offer great, but highly protected games. great pen. great rules. but everything dealt out of a shoe, and ASMs. No vig on 4, 10 in craps. single 0 roulette, etc

another key is hiring great staff and management. that is usually the killer of businesses. Make the dealers follow SOP to the T. Hopefully, my place would have so much foot traffic, and the tips would be pouring out, so the dealers would work their asses off so as to not get fired for one reason or another.

Now for the counters....Play would have be analyzed, and upper management making decisions on who to ban. red chip counters can stay. possibly green chippers depending on overall revenue. BUT, since APs are so rare, these choices will rarely be made, and therefore, little effort will be spent on actively searching for APs, unless the AP is making a killing off of me.

of course I could sit here and armchair QB about this issue all night, but I know it is a tough business. As I have seen action on tables dry up because the casino decided to make the game too crappy, and even though a ploppy can't play worth ****, he still knows which places seem easier to win money at, and which places where he loses the most.

 

[tensplitter]

Always have to consider that a counter might also bring family and friends who feed the slots all day. Why ban a winner who will just give the money right back in other games? Also, if the casino is making millions a year, is it worth it to ban an AP making just a few thousand a year? That AP is going to pay for other things like food and hotel rooms too. Gaming revenue is taxed at a higher rate than non-gaming revenue.