Interesting post down below!

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learning to count

Well-Known Member
I saw this this morning; could be a troll or could be true. If it is true Ihope he will post more and share his feelings and ideas of card counters.

Re: BE careful!

Posted By: EyeSpy
Date: 2/24/03 8:09:01 p.m.

In Response To: BE careful! (Learning to count)

I don't know what all the fuss is about; I think some people on this board are being paranoid. I mean get real, I work in surveillance, I can count just like the rest of you, I don't need a computer to tell me you are counting, I don't need your email address to figure that out. I just want to watch your play. If you consistently go with the count you're a counter, throw all that mumbo jumbo play and your wasting your %. Play like you have some..... See you from the sky.
 
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Rob McGarvey

Well-Known Member
Here it Is.....

It's easier just to put up a link to it and save the group 1000 man hours of searching......smile

(Dead link: http://www.cardcounter.com/main.pl?noframes;read=3229)
 
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EyeSpy

New Member
I am not a troll..... Don't ask me to prove it, I not going to waist my time by doing so. I wish I could give you some insight into surveillance, I'm sorry I can't - the post that I responded to - simply got carried away about people on the outside looking in, I guess that would be me.... I just said they were over-reacting... Yes we are here - we do read too, but I'm at home drinking a beer - I don't feel like taking notes, and like my wife always says "you don't know everything"... I get paid to protect the casino's money (AT WORK)

We actively look for counters, and other. I've seen some of the best in the field - most of the time they get backed off. We do share information with one another. Just think twice before using a computer during play, or the new tech stuff coming out - you can't go to jail for counting, but you will with a device. We have a lot of information at our disposal - I use this to my advantage. I wish I can answer stuff you are dying to know. I would like to keep my job easy and if I tell you things, you could make my job harder..... I will say this, counters stand out - their play is not the norm of an AVERAGE/BELOW AVERAGE player. Why is it YOU can spot other counters on the same table lol, same differance... And for me to catch you, I can start counting anywhere in the shoe, if you don't understand this, go back to chapter one - I don't have to start counting in the beginning like you. Don't ask me any questions, they will go unanswered.
 
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learning to count

Well-Known Member
We do not get a lot of Casino personel posting here so any such posts make me suspicious. Like I also said we are happy for you to be involved in this discourse. I understand about your position and I respect your point. I dont agree with the casino view on advantage play nor do I agree with the over reaction in treatment that is given or displayed against a winning player card counter or not. I guess I still believe if you are offering a game then you are offering a chance to win. So if a person learns to play that game with brain power and wins why is he branded a thief? I agree with the cheating laws about card daubbing, micro computer play, bait and switch, mirrors, etc.etc.

You have to agree that some of the anti-card counter tactics have gone overboard. Even you have to agree that the tactics involved are violating civil and privacy rights such as illegal detainment, sharing of financiel information, Battery, falsified statements on probable cause affidavids...the list goes on. I acknowledge that the casino has the right to trespass any one "without a reason". This is a state law there and similar laws have been in effect in numerous if not all states. It is for the protection of business and a owners protection to run his business as he seems fit. It is balanced by the business owner wanting to attract business.(You cant kick out for civil rights reasons the business can be federally sued and even face federal criminal chages.) In the old days they simply beat up the counters. I guess when it comes to money its a green felt jungle out there.

Hey its a battle of wits and sometimes it is fun; But there has to be some fairness. I myself am glad you have posted here and I welcome you to continue. I understand that you cannot give out Casino secrets nor would I wish that you put your job in jeapordy. If you have a chance go to arnold snyders black jack forum (http://www.bjfonline.com/) and check out the Cellini heat report discussion page. Cellini is a casino security expert who has disclosed much of the casino security world. It is an interesting section over there and you may see that these topics are discussed openly.
 
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EyeSpy

New Member
I do agree with you LTC, it's not my casino - I just work at one. But come on - If you figured out how to get a free drink at a coke machine and told someone how to do it, and they told someone, etc. How could the coke machine survive? If everybody learned to count, shuffle track, do you think the BJ tables would still be open. I didn't invent blackjack, Al Gore did. Counting to me is just now getting recognized, and I guess once it is understood by the majority, the house will change the rules. Smarter people wrote the rules for the casino, and smarter people then "them" have analyzed the advantage of proper play with counting.
 
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learning to count

Well-Known Member
""I do agree with you LTC, it's not my casino - I just work at one. But come on - If you figured out how to get a free drink at a coke machine and told someone how to do it, and they told someone, etc. How could the coke machine survive?
If everybody learned to count, shuffle track, do you think the BJ tables would still be open. I didn't invent blackjack, Al Gore did. Counting to me is just now getting recognized, and I guess once it is understood by the majority, the house will change the rules. Smarter people wrote the rules for the casino, and smarter people then "them" have analyzed the advantage of proper play with counting""

Intersting point but I have to disagree. If a person did take the "free drink" it would be THEFT which is a violation of a state criminal statute. Card counting as you stated is not as crime. The coke machine/casinos are surviving quite well and would do so with or with out a classic BJ game. The reason that BJ survives is because it is popular and it draws people to the casino. Blackjack is a classic american casino game. It is part of classic las vegas and was popularized here in the US. In Europe they were still dealing Baccarat with canoe paddles and happily playing roulette.

Blackjack was made popular first by Thorp, Beat The Dealer" then by the numerous masters of advantage play that followed after. So why do the casinos have such an negative aggressive attitude towards us. Out of the millions of players out there only a few thousand are actually good enough to win. Come on the casinos are killing the degenerates with all the other carnival games including BJ. So why do the casinos go after the card counter to the extent that they do. I belive it is out of ignorance and greed. They just do not know how hard it is to win with counting. Their bean counter greed feeds thier IMHO is what drives thier paranoia to protect the bottom line.

I do believe the casinos have the right to trespass any person from the property with out a cause. This is state law. I do think there are issues with this trespass tactic as far as having a business that is granted a license by the government and is supposedly under strict governmental regulation and standards. That such licensing which in fact is by the will of the state which power is given by the the public to benefit the public can pick and choose who to kick out. Is not that chosen person a part of the public. This is something that will have to be looked at by higher legal authorities. Like I said if a consumer is in the casino and actually cheating then arrest him, charge him, judge him and if guilty imprison him. If another player is winning with pure brain power then what will the casinos do; beat him up? I think when these issues finally, and they will, are finally brought forth it could mean the end of Blackjack as we know it. I know the casinos will not give in.

I think that current conditions are bad for the pro-Advantage Players but there are still a few games available for mid range play and plenty of positive value games for low to mid value. The only thing I fear is that this current hi tech approach to defeating card counting will and is currently destroying the game for Advantage Player and Ploppy alike. This could hurt the casino as well. Even you may have to aggree that there is a symbiotic like association with casino and player. Oops look at the time I am going to get off of my milk crate and go and memorize more play indices.

See Eye we can communicate on issues that will not endanger either of us or our jobs. Please continue the debate so both side can learn. LTC

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Rob McGarvey

Well-Known Member
Smarter?

I really don't think that the casino is smarter than a counter is. This is rather evident in the way they treat us. They will bully us down or change the rules, which is the same old way the school bully used to play. Back in the day, the bully usually got the cream of corn kicked out his ass for pulling stunts like that. Y'all think you can come down on us and walk out the back employee door and go home and leave it at work because you have cameras telling you what we ate for breakfast the day before. Y'all better get useta having a camera pointed at you when you come out the employee door, cuz outside of your controlled environment? You're just an errand boy, sent by grocery clerks, to collect a bill.

Some counters do it as a hobby and you can scare them off. Some need the $$ like you do, but they have no benefit plan.

Say CHEESE.
 
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learning to count

Well-Known Member
Re: Smarter?

I agree with you on one point. That they choose a dumb way to handle any winners. The casinos do have the money to hire smart people to figure out what is going on and why some win and some don't. I am sure that they they know that card counting is no guaranteed "PROFIT"! Why they act as they do is mind boggling. I mean out of the 1 million AP players out there how many are actually hurting the the profits of any Casino? The stats are out there to show that less than half a percent of all AP'S are really making it big. Besides teams like MIT and others who is really killing the bottom line out there anyway. It sure is not me! Hell if I make 1200 -1500 I am doing great. Lately I have been leaving in the hole right around my Neg. Div. point! If it was'nt for the comps all would be lost!

PS Why they aggressively attack any type of winner shows that they are stupid. Gambling as defined is taking a wagered risk. The casinos see it as we paying for the opportunity to be entertained by losing the mortgage payment.
 
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hammer

Well-Known Member
exactly

The pit crew should try to play if they think its that easy
to make money,because it is not. They should realize that playing
is easy and even if you have all the indicies memorized it is of
no guarantee.The hard part is knowing when to leave. Many skilled
players wanted to stay to make a touch more and have given it all
back and more, for there is no exact rules for quitting.
 
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