interesting thread on a ploppy board...

[gehrig]

viz. "las vegas advisor" free forum. the thread relates to the current pestilence, 6:5 bj games. it seems that two posters opine that the game is (somehow) beneficial to the 21 player. respondents within the thread suggest that the two proponents are one in the same or at least, they/he/it may be employed by the gaming industry. one of the proponents uses a handle "craps master" which kinda sums up his gaming prowess.

the only other advocate of the 6:5 game i've noticed is the "authority", max rubin, who so stated that the 6:5 game was "good" for the player. he could be correct if the player held a vast shareholder position in a publically traded licensee. of course, rubin is an author of a guide to twisting comps from casinos. that said, a player enjoying those "good" games as the 6:5 21, or the carnival games, should expect substantial comps (@ 30-40% of his losses).

were i to be paid by the gaming industry, as well, i'd conjure up a thread attesting to the benefits of the "new", 6:5 21 game. what's next ? a thread, a la "craps master" mebbe adulating the big 6, by "big6whacker" ?

 

[The Mayor]

Haven't seen it, but...

There is a good argument a player could make that 6/5 is good for us. It goes like this: the more confidence casinos have that they are unbeatable, the more they will relax and become sloppy in their administration of all the games.

Or try this: 6/5 is more likely to have flashing dealers than most other blackjack in LV (since it is dealt from a single deck), and because it is a carnival game, it won't be watched as closely.

I don't know if these are the points being made on lva.com, but these are a couple that speak for the positive impact of 6:5 (I can't believe I'm saying that!). Indeed, the last flasher I found was at a 6:5 table.

The LVHCM operates at the highest level: when you read what they say, you have to imagine *who* is saying it to really understand what it means.

--Mayor

 

[gehrig]

who/what is the poster ?

as to hoping for less experienced/poorly trained pitchers on that 6:5 game seems happenstance. no different than shopping sawdust joints on "full pay" 21 games for weak dealers.

for the non-advantaged player, the only value i'd cypher is if the procedures of the game and whatever variations were offered, would result in far fewer hands per hour. but then we already have the royal match games for slow play, and many of those particularly downtown, still pay 3:2. those downtown, break-in joints coupled with royal match, and inebriated punters, are often miserably slow.

 

[Stealth Bomber]

6:5 IS better for the typical ploppy...

because it gives them a faster brutal azz-whippin'! It also helps to teach them to:

1) never return again & that gambling $ is stupid

AND/OR

2) learn the things they need to know so as to actually beat a 3:2 game

 

[gehrig]

and, like hitting oneself on the head with a hammer..

it feels good when you stop. that's gotta be a benefit.

another plus could be that the punter cranks up more $5 barfets or footlong hot dogs on his player's card. just like 3 reel slots relative to "full pay" video poker, the joints oughta comp more on the carnival games.

and like you stated, if the punter taps out quickly, it could result in more food on the table for the wife and bambinos, in the long run.

then, those employed by the gambling addiction apparat might get some overtime. overtime is good.

let's not overlook the bk lawyers. the yellow pages are rife with those who for a fee off the top, can file on behalf of the tapped out gambler. and if the punter lost enough, mebbe a law suit could stick against the gaming establishment. who could argue that the 6:5 21 player is a "victim" ?

the repo man and process servers can score as well.

the list of those beneficiaries downstream from the 6:5 player may be endless.

 

[alienated]

An additional benefit

I haven't seen the thread, but I think that from their perspective, 6/5 has the added benefit of not appealing to card counters. If all games were 6/5, there might be no counters, which would probably be to their liking. Game protection might become more lax, and conditions for stronger forms of advantage play would improve.

I'm not a hole-card spotter and I don't generally share this hostility towards counters, but I must admit, card counters can be a pest. They mess up conditions a lot. Some are arrogant, so if you try to take actions to neutralise the effects of their presence, they will occasionally even go out of their way to mess things up further.

For instance, one thing that is often critical with my style of play is the number of open boxes. Luckily, in the places I play, back betting is normally standard. This, combined with common supersititions of regular gamblers, makes it quite easy to engineer the right number of boxes for a particular round of play most of the time.

However, card counters ignore such concerns, usually because they think they 'know' that there is no basis to them. Usually, with back betting allowed, this does not matter too much. If a counter wongs in and opens another box, I can always close my box(es) and back bet them. But sometimes they are obnoxious. I have had occasions where the counter deliberately tries to undermine my play (of course, they do not think they are foiling an advantage play, but merely taunting a superstitious 'ploppy').

For example, on one occasion that sticks in my memory, a counter joined a table and opened a box where three boxes were already open. I was slightly annoyed, as this was a money round. But no problem, I closed my box and bet behind another player, to keep the number of boxes to three. Only problem is, the counter saw this, and purely for his amusement, disdainfully opened a second box. I began to withdraw my bets when another player closed a box to keep the number at three. That is, two players at the table had now voluntarily closed their boxes to accommodate the counter. The counter sneered, and placed bets in all free boxes (six of them). The rest of us removed our bets, and he placed a seventh bet in the remaining box. I would never usually wish bad luck/negative flux on another player, but I must admit, I wanted the dealer to pull a 'backdoor blackjack' on that round.

Of course, irrespective of the result, the counter 'knew' that he had made a good play, and that our concern about the number of boxes was foolish superstition. He, on the other hand, was playing a 'strong' game, or so he thought. But what was his expectation on that round? Half a percent? One percent? He cost me my edge for that round (conservatively estimated at roughly 500x his percentage edge, or perhaps 100x in dollar terms), plus a lot of time looking for it and still more time hanging around waiting for it. And he will never have the slightest inkling that anything was going on inside the heads of the other players at that table other than superstition and folly.

 

[gehrig]

the issue is that the thread was on a ploppy board.

rebuttal was ostensibly from two unskilled players that the game was somehow wonderful, "the best thing that's happened" for bj. even the resident ploppies complained that they finally realized that the 6:5 game was unfair. the suggestion arose that the two proponents of the new version were one in the same, or perhaps, casino employees. the defense of the 6:5 game was in the least, circuituous, and unrelated to the inferior payouts when compared to similar speed games dealt at 3:2.

i'm amazed that the "authority" max rubin would shill for the house. he was some level of expert/color commentator on a cable bj show. he stated that the game was good for the player. this is absolutely dishonest. if the shortened pay on the 21 game is beneficial for the player, then so must be shortened pays on all other games be similarly "beneficial". is the royal match option "good" for the player ?

 

[The real scoop]

There are NO benefits to 6/5.

Have you guys lost your mind?

So you had a bad experience with a card counter,big deal. Must he we now be punished with all 6/5 crap so some flake(s)over at LVA can peek in peace!?. Talk about a selfish jerk(s) at LVA. This troll hates all card counters(authors included)and wants to eliminate them. He claims 6/5 is the best thing that's ever happened to Vegas and wishes ALL BJ tables were 6/5 so he can play his peek a' boo game in peace. Furthermore,this troll claims us card counters bad talk 6/5 because it is not in our interest,well maybe it isn't,but that dont mean it's a good game,does it? Then,he touts about how wonderful he thinks the game actually is and uses his peek a' boo strategy for an excuse. This troll has also been virtually kicked off all BL message boards on the internet due to causing many disturbances and having no credibility. The only peek a' boo games this troll plays is from the other side of the fence.

 

[oldnewbie]

6:5

All major casinos are now owned by corporations. That means they are administered by corporate bean counters. This means they will do ANYTHING to increase their profits, short of making the customers happy.

I first noticed 6:5 on my last trip to Vegas in July of '03 at the Paris and NYNY. I read that it has since spread like a virus. The reason is simple: It increases the house advantage. That is all the CPC's (corporate bean counters) care about. It is not better for the "ploppies", of which I consider myself one, nor is it better for anyone else.

Corporate entities DON'T CARE ABOUT THEIR CUSTOMERS. All they care about is the bottom line. That is what they learned when they were studying for their MBA's, and that is what they believe.

Please don't be misled into believing that anything the casinos do is out of respect for their customers.

Corporations are evil.

oldnewbie

 

[Syph]

Think outside the box.

The SCORE for a perfect holecard game exceeds $10,000/hr.

Best,
Syph

 

[gehrig]

the issue remains that hole carding is not..

implicitly part and parcel of *any* game. this is a dealer training (or player-agent cheating) issue. my many years at 21 tables have not found any direct linkage between house rules and hole carding.... or warps, or dealer errors, or tolerance for bet spreads while winning. your philosophy would dictate that one should then play the 1:1 pay games in town.... the same measuring stick must be applied thereon. why would not hole carding be even easier on 1:1 games than 6:5 games ? then you must look for games where a dealer wins ties. so far, those games seem to be limited to kitchen tables. but with the apologist acceptance of the 6:5 game, who knows ?

 

[Syph]

A minor disagreement.

I understand your point regarding holecard play being more a dealer training issue than dependant on a 6:5 payout.

Fair enough, but as a practical matter, you must admit that the pitch game method is far more susceptible to holecarding (just as certain shuffle machines are), than shoe games.

That being the case, I would argue there is somewhat of a coorelation between house rules and "alternative" advantage play.

Take your example:

If the 1:1 games required the dealer to learn three to four times as many strategies to protect her holecard as the 6:5 game, it would be the new best thing.

Best,
Syph

(ps Where`s Clarke Cant these days?)

 

[Automatic Monkey]

True, I'd rather holecard 3:2

... but if that's not an option, holecarding 6:5 is still more profitable than any straight count. Now I count 224 6:5 tables in Las Vegas, mostly on the Strip, and in most of those casinos there are few or no other low stakes pitch games. So if you find an inexperienced, flashing dealer chances are it's going to be at one of those 6:5 tables. Add to this the smaller crowds and lower heat for AP's at those tables and the 6:5 pits are the logical first places to look for flashers.

 

[gehrig]

if you point is valid...

then perhaps you should demand that all 21 games in nevada should become 6:5 or less, snapper pays. do you think that just because some high end joint changes to a 6:5 payout, that those same dealers will immediately forget how to deal ? otoh, most of the poorly skilled dealers in town are *not* on the strip. rather they are at break-in joints downtown, pitching 3:2 games.

 

[Syph]

To be completely honest ...

I couldn`t care less whether it`s 3:2 or 6:5.

Just as long as it`s a pitch game.

But, hey, what do I know. I developed a fetish for Three Card Poker last time I was in Nevada ...

Best,
Syph

(But as I made mention on another board. I am all for encouraging games that can be beaten by counting. Counters are sitting ducks, waiting to be plucked. Takes the heat off the real players.)

 

[gehrig]

as to encouraging other punters...

exactly ! the proficient 21 players regardless of their (legal) skills, will take care of themselves. for the 21 game to remain as a live game, the joints must have sufficient hold versus cost of furnishing the game. this is unrelated to the nature of the ownership, corporate, whatever.

for those of you familiar with the retail grocery biz, you are aware of the extreme competition for shelf space. so it is on the casino floor. the slot department has most of the numbers on their side. machine cost is in the 10k each range for most slots, otherwise the numbers are all for slots. a "bank" of 6 slots takes up little more than a 21 table/chairs. slot returns coupled with the reduced supervision and dealer costs, are attractive to the bean counters.

even the dealer tokes are an issue since they significantly outweigh the infrequent tokes paid to the now rarer slot change/hand pay staff. those long into this 21 thing will recall the "dummy up and deal" policy of yore. that, since the joint assumed that *all* the players' money was theirs. how/why would you toke a virtual 21 device ? thus the joint will hold what would have been the dealer tokes.

with the introduction of virtual games...roulette, 21, and others, we may see only a few, token, live games per joint within a decade or two. perhaps the modern casino might have live games as a big 6 wheel, a roulette table, a couple of dice tables, a small pit of 21 tables, a back room poker area, for nostalgia, but mostly electronic devices. hey, it's gotta at least *look* like a casino.

thus to maintain the number of tables, those "advantage" players must rally all wannabes. i for one, always encourage other punters at a table, regardless of their skill. these are the beasts which carry the $/sq. foot burden for these live games. that concept extends to the often zealous attitude of certain 21 "luminaries" who curse the proponents of flawed systems. instead, these "authorities" should congratulate these fellow purveyors as providing the foundation of poorly armed players to carry the load.

and it don't hurt the act none by being a "reglar" player.

 

[Tom]

Dreaming of hole cards.

In reality finding a dealer who flashes every hole card is a very,very rare occurence whether it be at this game or that. Anybody with REAL experience knows this. I'd say on average I may get a peek one out of 10,000 hands and still dont have to like it. To assume dealers are going to somehow forget how to deal because the game is 6/5 is a fantasy. What about other circus games that are pitched? Now you say the next best thing to 6/5 blackjack that can happen in Vegas is train dealers to not expose hole cards...a true riddling puzzle!!? Duh,they already know this. Card counting is the bread and butter of blackjack,getting a flash now and then is just a little benefit and no sure way to riches.

 

[Syph]

Very good post, Gehrig.

And I must respectfully bow out at this point.

Save to say one thing to Tom ...

You`d be surprised.



Best,
Syph

 

[Tom]

I'd be surprised!?

You're extremly PARANOID of the so called hole-card.