K-O Rookie??

[slim100_us]

I have two question about the K-O Rookie system.

1. In the K-O book it states that using the K-O Rookie system with six decks and a 1-5 bet spread you will have a .26% expectation. Does this mean that for every $100.00 I wager I will earn .26c, or $26.00???

2. My second question is I am going to try the K-O Rookie system in a 6 deck game ware I am betting $3.00 for my small bet and $15.00 for my big bet (1-5 spread). How much should I bring to the table for each session? I was thinking of bringing about $80.00, do you think that will be enough?

Thanks for you help!!

Slim

 

[golfnut101]

KO rookie

1. .26c/every 100.00

2. not nearly enough. thats only 15 big bets. what if you have lots of
splits/dd ? make sure youre rules ar same as benchmark rules in book.
This is huge given youre small spread and min advantage, should you ever
get one...

 

[EasyRhino]

80 bucks would be great for flat-bettin $3, but for a 3-15 spread, I'd probably recommend 300 for one night, and there's a risk of losing it all if you have a bad streak with big bets out.

 

[Mikeaber]

No, .26% is .0026 in decimal or $100 * .0026 = $.26 per one hundred dollars wagered. You will pretty much double that expectation if you bump your spread to 1:10 instead of 1:5.

I use KO on 6-deck games. Unless you are Backcounting or exiting on negative counts, a 1:5 spread isn't enough to capitalize on the bet ramping. I'd suggest at least a 1:10 spread ($3-$30) and you'd need to carry more like $500 to the table at a minimum. In another topic we were talking about the advantage of card-counting and what happens on the high counts. Basically, you are going to lose a lot of those really large bets and with a few losses with splits and doubles, you could eat up $80 in one or two hands easily. A moderately bad run of luck could eat up $500 too but as I said, $500 would be a minimum and would still carry a pretty high risk of ruin (somewhere between 30% and 40%.) That risk of ruin is the percentage of the time that you'll go broke before doubling your bankroll of $500.

 

[golfnut101]

Ror

Mike

Correct me if I am wrong, but I dont think your ROR is quite that hi if you are able to backcount and if you adhere to a strict exit strategy on neg counts ?

thnx

 

[Mikeaber]

Mike

Correct me if I am wrong, but I dont think your ROR is quite that hi if you are able to backcount and if you adhere to a strict exit strategy on neg counts ?

thnx

You are correct. I was not considering that. In fact, I took the figures from a table that is for double deck with a 1:5 spread using preferred strategy in KO. It's apples and oranges, but probably not that far off for someone playing all hands in 6-deck.

 

[slim100_us]

I guess my question is, how much should I bring to the table with me, or how much should I allow my self to lose before I call it quits for the day?

Thanks,

Slim

 

[Mikeaber]

I guess my question is, how much should I bring to the table with me, or how much should I allow my self to lose before I call it quits for the day?

Thanks,

Slim

Well, with $80, I'd certainly be ready to lose it all. I'd only flat bet that amount at the minimum and play straight Basic Strategy...maybe take insurance and even money if I was counting when the count got to +3.

But as to how much to lose....I wouldn't take more than I could afford to lose to the table. Even on a $3 table, I wouldn't feel very comfortable with less than $500 if I was spreading 1:10 ($3 to $30) per bet unless I was getting out of Dodge on negative counts or just coming in when the shoe was positive.

 

[golfnut101]

questions

Hey Slim

Maybe the more pertinent question is: are you ready? If you are asking when you should 'stop', that means you either do not have the proper br, or you do not understand ap. You stop when the advantage stops, plain and simple, or when you no longer can count effectively. Make sure you have practiced so that everything is second nature. Read some of Bojacks posts about this. if you are playing with 'scared' money, you are doomed. I hope you are, and I wish you good luck, but I also know you annot practice enough, and it is alot tougher than most of us 'newbies' realize. Be prepared by educating yourself to the nines.

take care

 

[sagefr0g]

I guess my question is, how much should I bring to the table with me, or how much should I allow my self to lose before I call it quits for the day?

Thanks,

Slim

hey Slim, here is how i approach a day trip to a casino. what i do is i only take as much of my bankroll with me that i feel comfortable with losing it all during that trip. whats key here is that you need to have enough cash to be able to get in a 'reasonable' span of play time. for myself i'm happy if i last at least an hour but preferrably i'd like to at least get in three hours of play. if you was playing a dead even game you wouldn't expect to be ahead or behind more than twenty units after an hours play for about 68 such sessions out of a hundred. and you wouldn't expect to be ahead or behind more than forty units after an hours play for about 95 such sessions out of a hundred.
that being so to me thirty units is a reasonable trip bankroll for an hours play. me wanting to possibly play three hours well what i do is bring sixty units and i'm fully prepared to lose that amount on that trip .
i only play five dollar minimum tables so that is three hundred dollars that i bring for a given trip. you are playing three dollar minimum tables so if you where to follow suit with my approach you'd bring one hundred and eighty dollars if your unit bet is three dollars.
when playing if your trip bankroll starts getting really low you should only continue to play if you have enough to properly double down and or split and still be able to double down on your splits. you should also have enough to make your max bets.
additionally i agree with Mike in that you should have about a 1:10 spread.
i believe you could benifit by researching some info about ROR (risk of ruin), Kelly betting and variance/standard deviation.

 

[slim100_us]

Mr. Frog,

That is exactly what I was Looking for. There is a Casino near my house and I plan on going there one day a week to play some cards. So what I was looking for is how much I should take each time. My bankroll is not the issue, and I am not playing with scared money. I just want to see if I can beat this game. I am going to start with the K-O Rookie and I want to prove to myself that I can do it,, and that this count works. The problem with the K-O Rookie that I see is you are either betting big or you are betting small. What I do not want to have happen is have them kick me out right away because I am betting a 1-10 spread ($3.00 then $30.00). I do not no but I would think this would make them watch me pretty close. Anyway, I can see by the responses that I will need to bring more than $80.00.

Thanks,

Slim

 

[sagefr0g]

Mr. Frog,

That is exactly what I was Looking for. There is a Casino near my house and I plan on going there one day a week to play some cards. So what I was looking for is how much I should take each time. My bankroll is not the issue, and I am not playing with scared money. I just want to see if I can beat this game. I am going to start with the K-O Rookie and I want to prove to myself that I can do it,, and that this count works. The problem with the K-O Rookie that I see is you are either betting big or you are betting small. What I do not want to have happen is have them kick me out right away because I am betting a 1-10 spread ($3.00 then $30.00). I do not no but I would think this would make them watch me pretty close. Anyway, I can see by the responses that I will need to bring more than $80.00.

Thanks,

Slim

the table min being three dollars makes me wonder.... do they charge a comission on your betting (some joints with low table minimums charge something like a quarter a bet or something) ?
i would think you should do alright with KO Rookie if it's a good game. haven't read up on KO Rookie for quite some time but i believe you should be able to range your bets as you percieve the advantage increasing.
it really shouldn't present to much of a problem the 1:10 bet spread since it will only be rare occasions that you'll get the opportunity to bet 10 units. just keep an eye on the pit and get a feel for how you think they are percieving you.

 

[Jeff25]

Mr. Frog,

That is exactly what I was Looking for. There is a Casino near my house and I plan on going there one day a week to play some cards. So what I was looking for is how much I should take each time. My bankroll is not the issue, and I am not playing with scared money. I just want to see if I can beat this game. I am going to start with the K-O Rookie and I want to prove to myself that I can do it,, and that this count works. The problem with the K-O Rookie that I see is you are either betting big or you are betting small. What I do not want to have happen is have them kick me out right away because I am betting a 1-10 spread ($3.00 then $30.00). I do not no but I would think this would make them watch me pretty close. Anyway, I can see by the responses that I will need to bring more than $80.00.

Thanks,

Slim

I would recommend that you go to QFIT's site and use his CVCX Online Data Viewer.
http://www.qfit.com/cvcxonlineviewer.htm (pw-100) This way you can generate a bet spread and you wont be tossing out large bets at low counts. A few months ago when I started counting I was betting to much at the low counts and I was rocked with neg. varience. Also, because you will be varying your bets, it will produce less heat.

 

[Mikeaber]

Mr. Frog,

That is exactly what I was Looking for. There is a Casino near my house and I plan on going there one day a week to play some cards. So what I was looking for is how much I should take each time. My bankroll is not the issue, and I am not playing with scared money. I just want to see if I can beat this game. I am going to start with the K-O Rookie and I want to prove to myself that I can do it,, and that this count works. The problem with the K-O Rookie that I see is you are either betting big or you are betting small. What I do not want to have happen is have them kick me out right away because I am betting a 1-10 spread ($3.00 then $30.00). I do not no but I would think this would make them watch me pretty close. Anyway, I can see by the responses that I will need to bring more than $80.00.

Thanks,

Slim

I know that in Rookie, you bet 1 unit or 5 units, but it's a pretty simple step up to ramp your bets. Insurance bet is the same as Rookie. Other than that, if you want, you can stand on hard 16 against a dealer 10 if the count is -4 or greater.

Your biggest advantage in KO is in bet ramping and in the insurance bet. I would add to the author's claim that in addition to that, maybe the most important is the exit-strategy! You lose a lot playing all hands with minimum bets out during very unfavorable conditions (unfavorable counts!)

If you want to spread 1-10, just bet $3 in counts below -5 (better yet, don't play those hands or follow the exit strategy metioned before or read page 120 in the book). When the count gets to -5, raise your bet one unit and then raise it 1 unit for each increase in the RC. You will be at 10 units with a +4 count which is where you want to be. Not many casinos are going to take much notice of this action since you will not be making huge increases in your bets as a rule. The only comment I've ever gotten when betting this way is a raised eyebrow when I get a blackjack with a max bet out after betting a majority of my hands at lower bets.

There are several $3 games out there (Slots O Fun, Golden Gate, AmeriStar in KC, and I'm sure several others) that do not hit you with an Ante (Just Oklahoma as far as I know charges an ante).

 

[sagefr0g]

.......

Your biggest advantage in KO is in bet ramping and in the insurance bet. I would add to the author's claim that in addition to that, maybe the most important is the exit-strategy! You lose a lot playing all hands with minimum bets out during very unfavorable conditions (unfavorable counts!)

......

right! Slim most definately ought to be at least wonging out on disadvantageous counts especially if he only carries the moderate bankroll i was suggesting.

 

[21forme]

right! Slim most definately ought to be at least wonging out on disadvantageous counts especially if he only carries the moderate bankroll i was suggesting.

Is wonging out that helpful when you're playing a 6 or 8 deck shoe and there are 5 or 6 players at the table? With that many cards in play the count can really swing from one hand to the next.

 

[sagefr0g]

Is wonging out that helpful when you're playing a 6 or 8 deck shoe and there are 5 or 6 players at the table? With that many cards in play the count can really swing from one hand to the next.

wow, i think that is a really interesting guestion. i'm not sure the answer .
i guess the pointed guestion would be:
when is wonging out most effective....
1. when table is full or close to full
2. heads up play

but none the less i believe wonging out to be a significant advantage play in any instance.
i don't believe the count swings from hand to hand for the most part however it certainly can. overall i believe the true count tending towards zero theorem tends to rule.

 

[Mikeaber]

Is wonging out that helpful when you're playing a 6 or 8 deck shoe and there are 5 or 6 players at the table? With that many cards in play the count can really swing from one hand to the next.

You definitely can Wong out of crowded tables...the trouble is getting back into the shoe if the count swings in your favor. The only effective way I've been able to accomplish it is to either "take a phone call" or stand back for a smoke (if I'm playing a non-smoking table) while keeping count. Every once in a while, you can just say "Bad Luck. I'm sitting out a couple of hands and maybe change up the deck." That way, you don't lose your spot.

Also, the count can swing dramatically when there are 6 people playing! It can be very frustrating but there is nothing you can do about that!

 

[sagefr0g]

Is wonging out that helpful when you're playing a 6 or 8 deck shoe and there are 5 or 6 players at the table? With that many cards in play the count can really swing from one hand to the next.

an additional thought on this issue. it's really best to play at tables with less than five or six players. one on one with the dealer or a total of up to four players is what i hope for. this way what you get is in essence better penetration. and penetration is a vital factor for success. with respect to the earlier issue of wonging out it's been for me a some what paradoxical challenge. i seek out less crowded tables for the aforementioned reason but when the count goes south then i'm wanting to leave and still be able to keep that uncrowded table. it sucks to be stuck one on one with the dealer when the shoe is tanking on you but you hate to lose the table.