KO Complications

[ThunderWalk]

In another thread I replied to a posting regarding KO.

One of the "advantages" claimed by the authors is that KO doesn't require converting the count to something else. However, the Initial Running Count (IRC) is 0 for single-deck, -4 for 2-decks, -20 for 6-decks, and -28 for 8-decks.

I'm in the process of learning to implement the system, but starting with such a high count is what's creating a problem for me. I play a lot of 6-deck games to practice, and when I go to the casino, initially I'll be playing 8-deck games until I can get good enough to risk playing smaller decks.

At present, I'm overwhelmed when I'm showing 16, the count is -18, the person next to me is complaining about his 15-year-old daughter, and "Happy Birthday Sweet 16" is playing on the sound system.

And the question was then asked:

Originally Posted by shadroch
Please explain what you mean by playing 8 deck games until you are good enough to play smaller ecks. One the surface,this makes no sense.The smaller the number of decks,you play with,the easier it is,and the more effective KO is. There is a section in the KO book that explains that if you are having trouble with large negative numbers,you can substitute any numbers you wish.If you have not read this section,you should do so ASAP.

Keep in mind that I'm, a rookie at Blackjack. A good friend who is an advanced player with a great deal of experience tells me that when he plays single deck, he gets killed. He can count, but prefers to drink and have conversation at the table... so he usually just plays BS.

I'm also under the impression (from where I've played) that there are 6-deck or lower games back in the High-Stakes Room, but only 8-decks out on the main floor. Rightly or wrongly, I've been given the impression that I really need to know what I'm doing before I tackle anything like one or two deck games. Although I have a good grasp of BS, I'd like to learn to count, but the issue I've already mentioned is presenting problems.

If you have a reference to "section in the KO book that explains that if you are having trouble with large negative numbers,you can substitute any numbers you wish" I'd appreciate it if you could point out the chapter or page number. I haven't been able to locate it and I'm reading the reprint. The original version is no longer available.

But the issue is the sound of other things around me that sound like what I'm trying to keep track of. Anything in the "teens"... 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. And starting at such a high RC with 8-decks leaves lots of room for error before I reach the key count of -4.

 

[RJT]

Alright TW,
I can see your problem, but unfortunately what was discussed earlier really won't help much. It's more designed to help if you're struggling with large negative numbers, not just large numbers.
You see the IRC and Pivot are variable. It's been a while since a read KO, but we'll take the 8-deck example since that is what it seems likely that you'll end up playing against.
With an IRC of -28 i'm going to assume that the Pivot is 0 (i could be wrong on this - as i said it's been a while since i read the book - but for the purpose of this example it should make no difference). So you start at -28 and count up and when it hits 0 you can start betting.
So it doesn't really matter what your IRC was, just as long as the count rises by 28 before you start betting. So if you don't like dealing with large negative numbers, you could set your IRC to 0 and Pivot to 28. Or you could set your IRC to -14 and Pivot to 14. It doesn't matter as long as you make sure the count has risen by 28 before you start betting.
As i said earlier though, this doesn't really help with the problem of dealing with numbers in the teens. Only practice will do that i'm affraid. Try setting CV to vocalize the hand numbers while you practice on that.....
Hope this helps.

RJT.

 

[shadroch]

I don't have my copy of KO handy,but will look for it.
I'm still confused about the advice you are recieving about 8 decks being easier to play than one or two or six.In point of fact,its the opposite.
Unless he is saying that the stakes are much higher and you should stick to the lowest stakes,which does make sense.
I'd also be very leery of a person who claims to be an AP,but then says he doesn't count because he likes to drink and converse.Just for fun,hand him two well shuffled decks and see if he can count them down in 45 seconds.

 

[21forme]

The KO key count for 8 decks is -6.

I usually play 6 decks and use their "rules of 5s," shifting the IRC from -20 to -3. Then, the key count becomes +15 and the pivot +20. The info in the book about customizing the count is in Appendix 8.

I, too, don't get it when you say it's easier to count 8 decks. As a beginner, you're more likely to lose track in a large shoe than 1-2 decks. You have to concentrate on what you're doing and ignore distractions. As you're trying to remember your count, use your fingers (under the table, of course) or make a pile of chips to help (for example, a red chip is +5, etc.) With practice, you'll get better. Use software, or online check out http://www.lastresortconsulting.com/pages/practice/LRquiz5.html (Archive copy)
I select simple plus/minus. The numbers don't work for KO, but the idea is just practice counting pairs and get better.

 

[Canceler]

Practice what's difficult

ThunderWalk:

How fast can you count down a deck? If it's more than 25-30 seconds you need to practice until it doesn't seem like so much work.

While you're doing this, try things like starting with the count at -28, knowing you should end up at -24, for example.

With KO spending so much time in negative territory, every morning I count down a deck starting at +6, so that positive numbers don't mess me up.

 

[bigbjfan]

I modified my KO count so that all numbers start and stay positive. It is easier for me that way.

 

[CSUF_gambler]

you guys know that you can customize the KO count right? for any deck, you can make it so that the IRC starts at whatever number you want. theres a section in the apendix about customizing.

i just make it so that all IRC's start at 0

 

[EasyRhino]

Early on, I had trouble lowering[/] the count when I saw a high card, so I do a reverse KO. In a 6D game, I start at +15, and my key count is -1. In a single deck game, my IRC is +1, and the key count is -1. I pick -1 because of a golf analogy, that's when you get under par, so it's time to bet big. (hey, worked for me).

Having just spent last weekend playing single deck for the the first time, I can think of two things that are harder:

1) The order you see the cards in a pitch game is highly variable. Face down cards, face up cards, busted hands, BJ's, players randomly flashing cards, it's bedlam. That's probably what makes it harder.

2) The count does often spend more time bouncing around zero, so you end up switching between positive and negative a lot.

However, you don't have to remember anything as long, and you can catch up after a shuffle much faster.

 

[ThunderWalk]

Good advice

Thanks everyone for all the good advice. I'm starting to see the light.

However, the main issue still remains... the sounds in my head, which I suppose I'll just have to learn to deal with. If the count is -13, and I'm showing 6/10 and saying to myself "thirteen" and "sixteen" and the person next to me is saying he's been sober for "fifteen" days, and somewhere in the background the song "Sixteen Candles" is playing... I lose the count.

In fact, if the count is -16, and my cards are showing 16, I start to doubt the count and think I might have made a mistake. Is it really 16, or did I just think that because I'm looking at a 6/10 in cards.

I know this is a foolish notion, but some system that didn't involve another set of numbers would be less confusing for a beginner -- say, like letters of the alphabet (but, there are only 26) or the names of funny animals. You know... like, the count could be plus Aardvark... or maybe minus Kangaroo!

 

[Claza]

Thanks everyone for all the good advice. I'm starting to see the light.

However, the main issue still remains... the sounds in my head, which I suppose I'll just have to learn to deal with. If the count is -13, and I'm showing 6/10 and saying to myself "thirteen" and "sixteen" and the person next to me is saying he's been sober for "fifteen" days, and somewhere in the background the song "Sixteen Candles" is playing... I lose the count.

In fact, if the count is -16, and my cards are showing 16, I start to doubt the count and think I might have made a mistake. Is it really 16, or did I just think that because I'm looking at a 6/10 in cards.

I know this is a foolish notion, but some system that didn't involve another set of numbers would be less confusing for a beginner -- say, like letters of the alphabet (but, there are only 26) or the names of funny animals. You know... like, the count could be plus Aardvark... or maybe minus Kangaroo!

You can only get rid of that self-doubting feeling with practice.

Hopefully you use Casino Verite Blackjack V4, where you can fill up the table with computer generated players, set your Option-Settings to the rules of your choice, check "Always peek at count" in Environment, set your Count Strategy to KO customized to use whatever Initial Running Count (IRC) you want. Then sit back and let the computer play by itself, you just keep track of the count. After each round, a window with the correct count will pop on the screen, confirming if you were right or wrong. When you get tired of that, you can also do lots of different drills.

Sounds like you are having the same problem like I did. For me, it really helped not verbalizing the count in my mind, instead "picturing" it. I thought the visualization technique was a bunch a crap at the beginning, but after some practice I realized that it actually worked!

And another thing, I found High-Low to be easier to count (more neutral cards). KO is accurate at its pivot point, but for most of the shoe if offers kind of a skewed picture of where you are. The True Count conversion is a lot easier than you may think. I'm not saying that you should switch counts if feel you are already committed to KO, but make sure you understand what you are missing: http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?p=26925#post26925.

You will build confidence in your ability in no time if you take time to practice everyday.

 

[EasyRhino]

Yeah, I think the problems of storing the numbers when dealing with are common when learning any common system. On an early visit to a casino with a friend, he walked up to me at the table and began to regale me with his experiences trying to play a slot coupon, and he rattled off about 30 digits in a one-minute conversation, and he even knew I was trying to keep a count. I wanted to knock his head clean off.

1) Don't say "mi-nus" or "ze-ro" in your head. That's two syllables and takes to long. Say "M (em" or "my" and "zee" or "zed" or "naught" instead. Sounds stupid but it helps.

2) As mentioned try to just imagine the number of the count floating in your head, like a score in a pac man game or something.

3) If you play a few gillion blackjack hands, summing up your cards and basic strategy will become more automatic, to where you're not even really thinking about it. This allows you to use your brain exclusively to store the count. In my case, it also means me sometimes flipping over my five-card hand and asking the dealer what that all adds up to.

 

[ScottH]

Thanks everyone for all the good advice. I'm starting to see the light.

However, the main issue still remains... the sounds in my head, which I suppose I'll just have to learn to deal with. If the count is -13, and I'm showing 6/10 and saying to myself "thirteen" and "sixteen" and the person next to me is saying he's been sober for "fifteen" days, and somewhere in the background the song "Sixteen Candles" is playing... I lose the count.

In fact, if the count is -16, and my cards are showing 16, I start to doubt the count and think I might have made a mistake. Is it really 16, or did I just think that because I'm looking at a 6/10 in cards.

I know this is a foolish notion, but some system that didn't involve another set of numbers would be less confusing for a beginner -- say, like letters of the alphabet (but, there are only 26) or the names of funny animals. You know... like, the count could be plus Aardvark... or maybe minus Kangaroo!

I'd say just keep practicing and learn to remember the count in numbers, but if changing the number to a word works for you, go for it!

 

[ThunderWalk]

1) Don't say "mi-nus" or "ze-ro" in your head. That's two syllables and takes to long. Say "M (em" or "my" and "zee" or "zed" or "naught" instead. Sounds stupid but it helps.

Honestly, none of the advice I've received here seems far-fetched or crazy, and the one above is especially interesting to me. That's the sort of strategy I'm looking for, and the type of approach I'm trying to developed for dealing with obstacles. Bravo, and thank you.

 

[EasyRhino]

To be fair, it's been written in at least two books, but it hit me like a thunderbolt when I first saw it.

 

[zengrifter]

A good friend who is an advanced player with a great deal of experience tells me that when he plays single deck, he gets killed. He can count, but prefers to drink and have conversation at the table... so he usually just plays BS.

I'd say he talks BS too. zg

 

[ScottH]

Honestly, none of the advice I've received here seems far-fetched or crazy, and the one above is especially interesting to me. That's the sort of strategy I'm looking for, and the type of approach I'm trying to developed for dealing with obstacles. Bravo, and thank you.

I also say just "M" for minus in my head. And for positive counts just say the number, dont say "plus" or anything else.

 

[shadroch]

TW,
The section I was referring to is Appendix VIII( eight) in KOPerhaps it might be of some use,but nothing beats practing hard except practicing even harder.

 

[halcyon1234]

I also say just "M" for minus in my head. And for positive counts just say the number, dont say "plus" or anything else.

Or you can think "up" for positive and "down" for negative. It's one syllable. AND there's no "up" and "down" terms in Blackjack to get mixed up with. Even for "zero".

Sometimes, when it comes to "visualizing" the count, I'll keep negative numbers on the left, and positive on the right.

 

[Knox]

you guys know that you can customize the KO count right? for any deck, you can make it so that the IRC starts at whatever number you want. theres a section in the apendix about customizing.

i just make it so that all IRC's start at 0

I start all IRC's at zero also and it is a breeze.

For example, 6D game:

IRC = 0

key count = +16

take insurance = +23

pivot point = +24

Viola, you are done. It's not rocket science.

2 deck game goes 0, +5, +7, +8, as described above. Very simple.

For optimizing KO betting on a 6D shoe, just take the modified running count (above) and subtract 15 from that number for a 1-10 spread. Bet that number of units.

For exit strategy in 6D, you exit when the count is one deck (+4) lower than where it should be. For example, after two decks the count should be +8. If it is +4 or lower (a deck low), consider a bathroom break. At 3 decks it should be +12. Get up and take a fake cell phone call or smoke break at +8 or less.

This should all be common sense to any counter with a long-term future in BJ.