KO count question

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sprettster

Member
Unbalanced counts have always been a mystery to me, so I'm learning the KO to see what it's all about. In "KO Blackjack" by Vancura and Fuchs, they say that for a 6D game you should start the running count at -20 off the top, and when the RC reaches -4 you should bet up. What I don't get is that since the imbalance per deck is +4, the RC will on average reach -4 after four decks have been dealt, which would be equivalent to a TC=0 situation. It seems to me that "bet up at -4" doesn't work here. Can someone tell me where I'm going wrong?

sprettster
 
T

Titaniumman

Well-Known Member
Good Question

You're not really missing anything.

I wrote this in a post on Greenchip in early September:
KO starts off indicating an exaggerated negative situation when too many cards remain undealt to gain much of an advantage anyway. KO then slowly climbs up as cards are dealt since every deck adds up to +4. If the remaining cards are rich in big cards, KO would have climbed faster than average. When and if the KO count goes sufficiently positive to indicate a desirable situation, penetration has also been achieved to fairly match the positive indication.

Of course, you demonstrate that you have a pretty good handle on this concept. The thing you must understand is that KO is an extremely simple counting system, and therefore trades off some of its effectivity for that simplicity.

Thankfully, the loss of effectivity is not enough to keep KO from being competitive with other counting systems.

The betting ramp that V&F recommend is calculated for through the entire shoe, and not for one particular point.
 
O

Ohio_Jones

Member
The Key Count is the Key

V&F describe -4 as the key count in the 6D game. Uston SS, Red Sevens and UBZII keep the pivot point at 0 by taking the final running count x number of decks and then subtract that from 0 to create a negative IRC. V&F do the same thing except subtract from 4 and call it the key count whereby they still refer to the pivot point as 0. I would be curious to know why you would change from AOII after 10 years? If it is just the TC conversions I would suggest the UBZII. I don't use that particular system but it seems many people fair well with it in the shoe games.
 
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sprettster

Member
Re: The Key Count is the Key

Thanks for the replies. It seems to me that the betting efficiency of the KO is rather weak compared to balanced counts that calculate a TC. Is that just a misconception on my part? Is there a way to strengthen the KO betting efficiency by somehow converting the RC to a TC for betting purposes?

I'm looking at the KO just to understand how unbalanced counts work. I'm quite happy with the AOII as it does well in the 1D and 2D games I usually play.

Sprettster
 
J

Jim2

Member
Re: The Key Count is the Key

I have used the KO count for a while, and I notice that with the large negative IRC in shoe games that it is very hard to get to the -5 RC needed to increase the bet spread. If there is a slug of 10 count cards early in the shoe, the count will never get positive. Thats a part of the KO system that I don't like, the simplicity is nice, but there is lots of playing time wasted using basic strategy and a flat bet. It can be frustrating.

I have played quite a few shoes on CVBJ for practice and notice that the count doesn't get to the point of bet ramping very often. This is confirmed my casino play that has the same results.

I have switched to the high low system because of this problem. Conversion of the RC to a TC shouldn't be that difficult.
 
M

maple

New Member
Re: The Key Count is the Key

I think a lot of KO players do as I do. Start any shoe with 0 as an IRC
rather than with a negative number. In a 6 deck shoe, +16 is the key count and time to raise, + 20 for insurance etc. Goes the same for any number of decks, start all at 0 and recalculate.
 
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Lars

Member
Re: The Key Count is the Key

the whole point of the K-O system is to keep only one count as opposed to 2 different counts (running and true) with other systems sprettster ... its for simplicity sakes... it doesnt claim to be as more powerful as Omega II or other systems just that its simplier and can be as accurate.. me myself i would rather have only one count (running) in my head then 2.. especially with all the noise of the casino (slots, waitresses in their skimpy dresses, ploppies etc.) and not have to worry about converting a running count to a true count.. or estimating how many decks are left etc.. etc.. anyways other then that i wanted to ask the board if they know where i can purchase the software that accompanies the K-O system or if V & O have a website... thanks..
 
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