KO Versions?

[SPX]

I understand that there are a number of KO versions.

I've heard of KO Rookie, KO Preferred, reKO and TKO? What is the prime difference between these various versions?

 

[Mimosine]

I understand that there are a number of KO versions.

I've heard of KO Rookie, KO Preferred, reKO and TKO? What is the prime difference between these various versions?

there are two "Official" versions of KO, as described in "Knockout Blackjack" by Fuchs and that other dude.

KO Rookie, is basically a counting method where you keep track of the cards using an unbalanced count, when you reach a specific count you jump your bet to a predetermined unit. Let's say $50, and let's say that $5 is your bet whenever the cards are not in your favor. so you bet $5 while counting through the cards, the second the count goes good you immediately start betting $50 until the end of the shoe or until the count decreases.

KO Preferred is built on KO Rookie. Same counting system, except now you take insurance, you make roughly 20 index plays away from basic strategy at specified points, and you match you bet to the count. at negative counts you make 1 unit bets let's say $5, the second you reach a point (the same point in KO Rookie) instead of betting $50, you now only double your bet to $10. as the count rises you varry your bet proportional to your advantage. at a much higher count you put out the whole $50 using KO preferred. In essence KO preferred adopts index plays (similar to hi-lo's illustrius 18, and modified proportional betting a.k.a. Kelly betting).

A full description of these systems is available for $13 via amazon, and worth it if you are more interested.

reKO and TKO are balanced or semi-balanced versions of KO. KO does not involve deck estimation like hi/lo. it keeps track of your edge by counting more low cards than high cards thus it is called unblanaced. this is its simplicity. reKO and TKO have not been descibed in print (to my knowledge) though there exists some info about these systems on the web, though the advantage they offer over KO preferred seems marginal at best.

perhaps someone else can chime in more accurately on reKO and TKO.

 

[EasyRhino]

reko is just a simplified version of KO Preferred (fancier than rookie, not as complicated as preferred). The main difference is that all of the playing deviations are made at a single count. Also slight tweaks to betting ramp.

http://www.qfit.com/REKOStrategy.htm

I'm not sure if there is anything to know besides what's in the KO book, and what's on that page, to be honest.

 

[SPX]

there are two "Official" versions of KO, as described in "Knockout Blackjack" by Fuchs and that other dude.

KO Rookie, is basically a counting method where you keep track of the cards using an unbalanced count, when you reach a specific count you jump your bet to a predetermined unit. Let's say $50, and let's say that $5 is your bet whenever the cards are not in your favor. so you bet $5 while counting through the cards, the second the count goes good you immediately start betting $50 until the end of the shoe or until the count decreases.

KO Preferred is built on KO Rookie. Same counting system, except now you take insurance, you make roughly 20 index plays away from basic strategy at specified points, and you match you bet to the count. at negative counts you make 1 unit bets let's say $5, the second you reach a point (the same point in KO Rookie) instead of betting $50, you now only double your bet to $10. as the count rises you varry your bet proportional to your advantage. at a much higher count you put out the whole $50 using KO preferred. In essence KO preferred adopts index plays (similar to hi-lo's illustrius 18, and modified proportional betting a.k.a. Kelly betting).

A full description of these systems is available for $13 via amazon, and worth it if you are more interested.

reKO and TKO are balanced or semi-balanced versions of KO. KO does not involve deck estimation like hi/lo. it keeps track of your edge by counting more low cards than high cards thus it is called unblanaced. this is its simplicity. reKO and TKO have not been descibed in print (to my knowledge) though there exists some info about these systems on the web, though the advantage they offer over KO preferred seems marginal at best.

perhaps someone else can chime in more accurately on reKO and TKO.

Thanks for the info. I have actually learned KO Rookie . . . can't do it quickly (i.e. at casino speed) but I can do it if I have time to sit there and count the cards.

It was mostly reKO and TKO that I was curious about, as I have never heard of them officially mentioned.

I should get the book, but right now times are financially tough and I am in a state of flux as far as my residence goes--just moved to Salt Lake and staying with a guy temporarily, but I could be gone this weekend or the next or the next--and haven't taken the time to order it. If I could find it on the shelf, I might go ahead and drop the money but I've NEVER found it in a bookstore (odd since its so popular).

On the other hand, I do have Bluebook II and KISS is fully described so I've considered just learning it instead. We'll see.

 

[Mimosine]

On the other hand, I do have Bluebook II and KISS is fully described so I've considered just learning it instead. We'll see.

no matter what you choose, so long as you are follwing it perfectly you will have the same outcome - i'd go with what i liked best, the one that i could follow best, the one i felt most comfortable with.

check half.com for KO, but at $13ish it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to get it outright from amazon.

 

[schismist]

I should get the book, but right now times are financially tough and I am in a state of flux as far as my residence goes.

As long as you're just curious, that's fine. But you'll find out in about 2.3 visits to the casino that counting using any system won't work when times are financially tough.

 

[SPX]

check half.com for KO, but at $13ish it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to get it outright from amazon.

Yeah, it's not so much the price as it is the fact that it has been easier to not buy it when it's not an impulse buy. I have looked for it in every bookstore I've gone to and really don't understand why it's not on the shelf when several books I've never heard of can be found at many places.

I will order it eventually, probably once I am in my own place and have a permanent address.

 

[SPX]

As long as you're just curious, that's fine. But you'll find out in about 2.3 visits to the casino that counting using any system won't work when times are financially tough.

Oh, no joke. When I first studied up on KO Rookie, I spent several hours the first night going through deck after deck and recording my results. I started myself on paper with a $500 bankroll, with a $5 base unit, on a single deck dealing all the way to the bottom card. I know that such a mythical game does not exist, but I mostly wanted to see the system perform as it was the first time I had put down the books and turned lots of theory into reality. I ended up around -110 at some point . . . surprisingly however, the system managed to pull itself all the way out of the hole and I got up to +560 . . . though I then began another descent and ended the night at -10.

I know people bash progressive systems and whatnot, but for the player who might make $13 an hour and only has $200 to play with a couple of times a month, it's a more realistic method of play and more interesting than flat betting.

 

[zengrifter]

reKO and TKO are balanced or semi-balanced versions of KO.

This is incorrect - reKO is a rounded KO that is simpler than KO-pro but more advanced than KO-rookie. TKO is not balanced, but it is true-count adjusted and will slightly outperform HiLo in simulations. zg

 

[ScottH]

This is incorrect - reKO is a rounded KO that is simpler than KO-pro but more advanced than KO-rookie. TKO is not balanced, but it is true-count adjusted and will slightly outperform HiLo in simulations. zg

I think that reKO is very close to KO-Preferred. It's around 95% or more of the EV of KO.

 

[Mimosine]

I think that reKO is very close to KO-Preferred. It's around 95% or more of the EV of KO.

the few times i've looked at reKO, i kinda just scratched my head and said, huh? i don't get it.

KO preferred typically employs 3 numbers for all index plays in shoe games, and 4 index numbers in SD and DD games.

+4 for all obvious indicies. and most LS indicies
+3 for insurance
Key count for 16 v 10 and 8,8 v 10 LS
IRC for 12 v 4,5,6, 13 v 2,3

if you are only playing 6D with noLS then you need to know +4 for index plays, +3 for insurance, and key count for 16v10. doesn't seem that difficult to me.

 

[QFIT]

the few times i've looked at reKO, i kinda just scratched my head and said, huh? i don't get it.

KO preferred typically employs 3 numbers for all index plays in shoe games, and 4 index numbers in SD and DD games.

+4 for all obvious indicies. and most LS indicies
+3 for insurance
Key count for 16 v 10 and 8,8 v 10 LS
IRC for 12 v 4,5,6, 13 v 2,3

if you are only playing 6D with noLS then you need to know +4 for index plays, +3 for insurance, and key count for 16v10. doesn't seem that difficult to me.

KO isn't that difficult. It's a great strategy that frankly surprised many of us old-timers in its efficacy. I created REKO because it doesn't require memorizing different index values for different plays and different indices for different decks. You can throw out the flashcards. Yet it has 99.5% of the win rate of KO at the common games. Over 100% at some games. And REKO strategy tables look like BS strategy tables that are allowed in casinos. Considering people are selling strategies that have 35% the win rate of KO; I thought it was an interesting alternative.

And note that I didn't claim a "revolution" in BJ. It's just a strategy I have at a deep link on my site.

http://www.blackjack-scams.com​

 

[Mimosine]

And note that I didn't claim a "revolution" in BJ. It's just a strategy I have at a deep link on my site.

i didn't mean in any way to slight you, nor do i doubt that reKO performs at a significantly lower level than KO. what i was saying was, personally, for me, the difference between KO's rounded indicies, and say real indicies like those developed for hi/lo was simplification enough for me, and wasn't overload in my efforts to learn my first system, so for me there was no benefit in simplifing KO any further.

i have looked over your Strategy charts at length and appreciate that you took the time to complile them and put them together in a useful fashion. additionally, i think your software and work has made the shortcoming of KO more obvious and have given users of it some redress especially at the key count in shoe games. you observations encouraged me to develop KO RC/TC tables do better estimate my edge as a function of # decks dealt.

 

[zengrifter]

I created REKO because it doesn't require memorizing different index values for different plays and different indices for different decks. You can throw out the flashcards. Yet it has 99.5% of the win rate of KO at the common games. Over 100% at some games. And REKO strategy tables look like BS strategy tables that are allowed in casinos.

My mistake - I said that reKO was rounded. In fact, it uses count-adjusted BS, correct? zg

 

[QFIT]

My mistake - I said that reKO was rounded. In fact, it uses count-adjusted BS, correct? zg

Well, technically you could say it uses two count adjusted basic strategies. Or you could say it uses a much simpler rounded set of indices than KO Preferred. KO-P also uses 'rounded' indices.

 

[ChefJJ]

I created REKO because it doesn't require memorizing different index values for different plays and different indices for different decks.

that's not that hard either.

 

[beating vegas]

I understand that there are a number of KO versions.

I've heard of KO Rookie, KO Preferred, reKO and TKO? What is the prime difference between these various versions?

tko is either true counting ko or true fuguing if your using charts as for ko rookie to perfered is mainly indecs