flyingwind
Well-Known Member
What is so special about the A vs 17 matchup that the index play for surrender is to surrender if less than the index? As opposed to other surrender indices which are above the index number.
Less than 17 surrendering
- Thread starter flyingwind
- Start date
paddywhack
Well-Known Member
Has to do with the composition of the remaining cards allowing the dealer to make more hands.
BTW, that surrender is probably the most accurate one I've used. Can't tell you how many times the dealer winds up with better than 17 but it's a lot.
BTW, that surrender is probably the most accurate one I've used. Can't tell you how many times the dealer winds up with better than 17 but it's a lot.
The dealer has 2 shots at making his hand the first is only going to happen if he beats you, no push. The lack of tens to other cards at lower counts means he is more likely to catch the none ten value cards to beat you. Those pesky neutral cards flipped up for his down card beat you. Any other card he is drawing to soft 12 to 17 (hard 7). Soft 12 to 16 and the low cards kill you. A high card and here comes his second shot but this time a push is possible. I am not sure I can explain the mechanics better than that. Hopefully that helps.
neversplit5s
Active Member
If you look at the EVs for Spanish 21 vs. regular Blackjack, you'll see the effect that the lack of tens have on this hand. In fact in SP21 17 vs. A is the worst possible hand.
With most of the non-dealer-Ace surrenders you're more likely to do them at higher counts since the dealer has a better chance at having a pat hand on top of you being more likely to bust if you hit.
With most of the non-dealer-Ace surrenders you're more likely to do them at higher counts since the dealer has a better chance at having a pat hand on top of you being more likely to bust if you hit.
BJgenius007
Well-Known Member
I think you never want to surrender your 17 against dealer upcard A no matter what. Do you mean hit 17 against A? If the TC is low enough, you should hit 17 against A.flyingwind said:
Sonny
Well-Known Member
For a H17 game it is basic strategy to surrender. Check the Basic Strategy Engine:BJgenius007 said:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bjbse.php?numdecks=6+decks&soft17=h17&dbl=all&das=yes&surr=ls&peek=yes
-Sonny-
bejammin075
Active Member
I think it goes like this
Mostly we always stand on 17, it's just to risky to hit, even though it stinks to have a 17. The dealer with his Ace will have chances to make a better hand. I just happen to be perusing the output of some index sims, and I was looking at the 17 vs A over a range of counts. For Zen, I have surrendering if TC is less than -6 for S17, and +2 for H17, with about +/-2 TC for each index where it really doesn't matter either way. E.g. for S17, surrendering your 17 at -8 or -4 TC is the same. As the TC goes even more negative from -8, surrendering gets better and better, I would guess from the dealer making a nice hand from hitting some small cards. But going even more negative to TC of -12 for S17, -9 for H17, the decision switches to hitting your 17 vs dealer Ace.flyingwind said:
Friendo
Well-Known Member
Amazing. This comes up over and over and over again here - the third time I have seen this flavor of doofusism.BJgenius007 said:
What is so difficult about learning basic strategy for H17, or even clicking the "Basic Strategy Engine" link at upper left?
I'm beginning to suspect that there are a fair number of players here whose estimation of their own skills is somewhat higher than is justified by their actual knowledge.
This is not a subtle play, or unhead-of index, and S17 is vanishing, yet so many players don't seem to know basic strategy for H17 LS.
Why don't we just get this out into the open, and have a retard roll-call for all the frauds around here who don't know basic strategy?
Protip: learn basic strategy and the surrender indices for the games you are likely to play. That includes H17 LS.
Last edited:
BJgenius007
Well-Known Member
I use AO2. There is no surrender index for this. I just hit or stand. I hit if more negative to TC of -5.5 for S17, -4 for H17. This is for half deck true count AO2. For one deck true count, it is equivalent to TC of -11 for S17, -8 for H17.bejammin075 said:
Gamblor
Well-Known Member
If you play in the NE H17 AND LS is rare, offhand I think only Foxwoods has that, and that's a fairly recent development.Friendo said:Amazing. This comes up over and over and over again here - the third time I have seen this flavor of doofusism.
What is so difficult about learning basic strategy for H17, or even clicking the "Basic Strategy Engine" link at upper left?
I'm beginning to suspect that there are a fair number of players here whose estimation of their own skills is somewhat higher than is justified by their actual knowledge.
This is not a subtle play, or unhead-of index, and S17 is vanishing, yet so many players don't seem to know basic strategy for H17 LS.
Why don't we just get this out into the open, and have a retard roll-call for all the frauds around here who don't know basic strategy?
Protip: learn basic strategy and the surrender indices for the games you are likely to play. That includes H17 LS.
Sometimes I find myself ready to rip into a poster when they mention surrendering 17 v A, "Wha'choo talkin' bout Willis? Are you you sure your not playing Spanish 21???"... oh yeah, all those wacky H17 and LS games in the rest of the country.