Let's talk Zen

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

OK just now started the Zen count in practice. Doesn't seem so ominous but then i was getting really fast with Hi/Lo in recent months anyway.

Things I noticed in practice:

1. Running count fluctuates more quickly. Must be due to the large value positive cards (4 through 6) and the bigger negative cards (tens). And maybe because this is the first system I've tried that counts just two cards (8 & 9) as neutral.

2. Seems a slightly better system at reducing negative count house edge. The two hours I applied to the trainer stayed mostly low in counts. Seemed to break even easier.

3. More confidence hitting hands in both high and low counts. In high counts I felt better staying on stiff hands. Then in the low count I would hit that twelve against dealers six up card and improve my hand more often than not.

Does anyone else notice this running count fluctuation? Is the term "Zen" used because of these fluctuations? Like Yin & Yang?

Is the fluctuation an indication of a more efficient card value?

Who has used this with hand held games?

With six + deck shoes?

Seems like a winner, but i need a little more practice.

 

[zengrifter]

1. Running count fluctuates more quickly. Must be due to the large value positive cards (4 through 6) and the bigger negative cards (tens). And maybe because this is the first system I've tried that counts just two cards (8 & 9) as neutral..

Its a level-2 so the count rises and falls twice as fast and twice as high.

Is the term "Zen" used because of these fluctuations? Like Yin & Yang?.

No. Its because of the compromised Ace value.

Who has used this with hand held games? With six + deck shoes?

ZEN gets high marks for both types of games.

REMEMBER: ZEN as currently published is based on a 1/4D TC. You will need to learn the 1D TC version (or even the 2D TC version). zg

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Let's bump this thread.

So I'm going to assume the the TC conversion with Zen is different from Hi/Lo, correct?

All said it looks like there are a few pieces of the puzzle missing. Am simply converting to TC as i did before with Hi/Lo and rearranging certain doubles and splits according to common sense.

Things like in a low count occasionally hitting twelve against dealers six. In fact the low and neutral counts appear to be where the improvement I've seen is. Less losses, more pushes against the low bets.

The low and high running counts go through the roof compared to Hi/Lo. Takes some getting used to.

Whether I'm managing the TC conversion right or not it seems to help a bit. And my speed is nearly the same as in Hi/lo with just two days practice.

10 10 4 6 10 10 I count as

Minus 1 (10)
Minus 1

Minus 1 (10)
Minus 1

Plus 1 (4)
Plus 1

Plus 1 (6)
Plus 1

Minus 1 (10)
Minus 1

Minus 1 (10)
Minus 1

Total -4 Running count. Counting the tens a negative one twice and 4 through 6 plus once twice.

Ans sometimes subtracting or adding by two. that and canceling ten vs four etc.

 

[jack.jackson]

Let's bump this thread.

So I'm going to assume the the TC conversion with Zen is different from Hi/Lo, correct?

All said it looks like there are a few pieces of the puzzle missing. Am simply converting to TC as i did before with Hi/Lo and rearranging certain doubles and splits according to common sense.

Things like in a low count occasionally hitting twelve against dealers six. In fact the low and neutral counts appear to be where the improvement I've seen is. Less losses, more pushes against the low bets.

The low and high running counts go through the roof compared to Hi/Lo. Takes some getting used to.

Whether I'm managing the TC conversion right or not it seems to help a bit. And my speed is nearly the same as in Hi/lo with just two days practice.

10 10 4 6 10 10 I count as

Minus 1 (10)
Minus 1

Minus 1 (10)
Minus 1

Plus 1 (4)
Plus 1

Plus 1 (6)
Plus 1

Minus 1 (10)
Minus 1

Minus 1 (10)
Minus 1

Total -4 Running count. Counting the tens a negative one twice and 4 through 6 plus once twice.

Ans sometimes subtracting or adding by two. that and canceling ten vs four etc.

Just my opinion here, but I really believe you should try to break the hi-lo habit of counting tens of -1+-1=-2 for the Zen count.
As far as the TC goes They'res a couple tricks you can use in a 2D game to convert RC to TC.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Just my opinion here, but I really believe you should try to break the hi-lo habit of counting tens of -1+-1=-2 for the Zen count.
As far as the TC goes They'res a couple tricks you can use in a 2D game to convert RC to TC.

Agreed, but I've only been on the count system 2 days. This is my third day and can already use the strategy trainer at full speed. Not as fast as I'd like but certainly good progress in such a short period of time.

I mention this only for other people who may be holding of taking the plunge to another system.

What I need to know is if the TC conversion (in Zen) is similar to Hi/Lo. In other words is it a simple a division of the RC by the remaining decks in the shoe? Seems like it would be but I just don't know.

 

[zengrifter]

What I need to know is if the TC conversion (in Zen) is similar to Hi/Lo. In other words is it a simple a division of the RC by the remaining decks in the shoe? Seems like it would be but I just don't know.

Yes, just like HiLo. zg

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Yes, just like HiLo. zg

Thanks for the reply Z.

Now about this statement from: http://www.gamemasteronline.com/Archive/Blackjack/CountingSystemsP3.shtml (Archive copy)

Most Effective: In virtually all games.
Good Points: Easy to learn; easy to use for long playing sessions
Bad Points: The true count is figured at the half-deck level and that's not easy to do in multi-deck games.

What does that bold point mean? Do I mark time until halfway through the shoe? Min betting the whole first half?

 

[ThePloppyInTheAlohaShirt]

Thanks for the reply Z.

Now about this statement from: http://www.gamemasteronline.com/Archive/Blackjack/CountingSystemsP3.shtml (Archive copy)

Most Effective: In virtually all games.
Good Points: Easy to learn; easy to use for long playing sessions
Bad Points: The true count is figured at the half-deck level and that's not easy to do in multi-deck games.

What does that bold point mean? Do I mark time until halfway through the shoe? Min betting the whole first half?

Its telling you that you need to calculate your true count using the number of half decks remaining. When you were using hi-lo, you would want a running count of 6 on the first hand out of a six deck shoe to get to a true count of 1 (this is when you've overcome the 0.5% average house advantage). Using zen, you'd need a running count of 12 to approximately overcome that same advantage. Your running count of 12 could be considered a true count of 2 based on full deck conversion (12/6decks), a true count of 1 based on half deck conversion (12/12half decks remaining), or a little over 0.5 for quarter deck conversion (since nearly a quarter deck may have been played).

The choice of how you compute your true count is largely arbitrary, but increases with accuracy as you more accurately estimate the number of decks remaining. The benefit of the half deck conversion is that your true count numbers are very close to the hi-lo true count values that you should be used to since you've been using hi-lo. So at a half-deck true count of 1, you've overcome the average 0.5% house advantage, and at 2 you have an advantage of approximately .5%.

Once you've learned to count using zen, which you've found to be easy so far, the true count conversion is pretty straight forward and you won't find it any more difficult for zen than for other hi-lo.

But then comes the hard part, if you've been using indices you should relearn them using values determined specifically for zen. In another thread, Zengrifter linked to tables provided on Arnold Snyder's site (perhaps someone can repost the link here). The tables I remember are for true counts based on full deck conversion, so you need to adjust them if you choose to use the half-deck conversion (divide them by 2). Many of the indices will be slightly different than the hi-lo indices, but you should try to memorize them if you want to play accurately.

About a year ago, I made the same switch you're making now and the greatest difficulties were 1) trying to keep the count in a casino took a couple of visits (I would lose the count after 2 decks just as I did when I started with hi-lo but it became comfortable after about 10 shoes) and 2) learning the indices took forever (having to forget the hi-lo indices was a big obstacle).

I hope you find the transition easier than I did.

Aloha