Level I vs. Level II System

[darrislance]

Is it worth the extra effort to learn a level II system as opposed to a level I system? Currently I use the Hi-lo and am considering switching to the Hi-Op II. Just wondering if anyone has any insight.

 

[zengrifter]

Is it worth the extra effort to learn a level II system as opposed to a level I system? Currently I use the Hi-lo and am considering switching to the Hi-Op II. Just wondering if anyone has any insight.

Its NOT, simply because you can more easily add more indices and play longer and achieve a higher EV than if you simply switch count tags. zg

 

[golfnut101]

balanced vs unbalanced

Zengrifter
What are your thoughts on KO preferred in a 6d environment vs hi-lo ?
I have read that KO is a little weaker in theory, but practically speaking, it is slightly stronger. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Is it worth the extra effort to learn a level II system as opposed to a level I system? Currently I use the Hi-lo and am considering switching to the Hi-Op II. Just wondering if anyone has any insight.

It depends to some degree on what you are playing. Are you playing shoe games? Count the 2's as +0.5 and the 7's as +0.5 and now you're using the Revere Point Count instead of High-Low for a staggering 5-10% increase in win rate. There are at least two very good players on this board who use Hi-Opt II who get maybe a percent or two more than that, and they have to use a sidecount. You really can't get any better than those two counts for shoe games.

I use the RPC myself and I consider the added win rate to be worth it, but if you need to learn only one thing, it's the art of getting away from tables in bad counts and getting into them in good counts. It's worth more than any count or any index plays.

 

[golfnut101]

wonging

Hey Monkey

Do you just stand behind a table and count, or do you have some sort of cover ? I have just started, and found it easier than I thought, but, I have only tried it at one casino. I had no problem whatsoever. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

 

[BJLover]

It depends to some degree on what you are playing. Are you playing shoe games? Count the 2's as +0.5 and the 7's as +0.5 and now you're using the Revere Point Count instead of High-Low for a staggering 5-10% increase in win rate. There are at least two very good players on this board who use Hi-Opt II who get maybe a percent or two more than that, and they have to use a sidecount. You really can't get any better than those two counts for shoe games.

I use the RPC myself and I consider the added win rate to be worth it, but if you need to learn only one thing, it's the art of getting away from tables in bad counts and getting into them in good counts. It's worth more than any count or any index plays.

hi there, what is the rpc count?? is it a level 2 count, truecount required/??

 

[Sonny]

Do you just stand behind a table and count, or do you have some sort of cover ? I have just started, and found it easier than I thought, but, I have only tried it at one casino. I had no problem whatsoever. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Here's a link to a discussion we had about Wonging techniques:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2789

There are some good tricks in there but you will probably want to modify them to fit your personality/act.

-Sonny

 

[Sonny]

Is it worth the extra effort to learn a level II system as opposed to a level I system? Currently I use the Hi-lo and am considering switching to the Hi-Op II. Just wondering if anyone has any insight.

Here’s a link to a discussion about “upgrading” to more difficult systems:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2919

Once you get the hang of card counting, switching to another system is usually pretty simple. If you decide to switch I think you’ll be surprised how easy it is to upgrade from Hi-Lo to a level-2 system.

However, Hi-Opt II is probably not the way to go. It is one of the strongest systems but the ace side count makes it very difficult to use in shoe games. It is great for pitch games but the shoes will require something like Zen (balanced or unbalanced) or Revere Point Count (RPC). Here’s a link to some popular systems:

http://www.qfit.com/card-counting.htm

-Sonny-

 

[Automatic Monkey]

hi there, what is the rpc count?? is it a level 2 count, truecount required/??

Yes it is, but no sidecount is required, and it's the most powerful level 2 count for shoe games without a sidecount. I'm right now in the process of writing up a full system based on those system tags and publishing it here. Should be ready within a month. But don't expect miracles, as previously stated it's only 5-10% stonger than High-Low.

 

[golfnut101]

it all comes down to the Benjamins

What would that correlate into as far as dollars and cents for a nickel player ?
How can some of us rooks know whether or not it is worth moving up to more 'powerful' systems or not ? If I am only gaining say 2, 3 or 5.00/hr is it worth the added indices/side counts ? Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

 

[Sonny]

What would that correlate into as far as dollars and cents for a nickel player ?

If you are making $10/hr (2 units) then your EV might skyrocket up to about $10.50-$11/hr. By comparison, you could get the same results by playing a few extra hands per hour.

The biggest advantage of level 2 systems is that they find advantages more frequently and more accurately gauge the size of the advantage than simpler systems. That allows you to get money on the table more often and with slightly more confidence. For most players a level 1 system is fine. Besides, switching systems will require a whole new set of indices in most cases. For those players who want to eke out every little bit of advantage and maximize their profit potential (higher EV, lower SD, more Wong Ins, quicker N0) then level 2 is worth the investment.

In any case, an ace side count is almost never worth the effort IMHO. If you are looking for a level 2 system you should think about RPC or Zen. Both are very powerful and don’t require any side counts.

-Sonny-

 

[SystemsTrader]

Zengrifter
What are your thoughts on KO preferred in a 6d environment vs hi-lo ?
I have read that KO is a little weaker in theory, but practically speaking, it is slightly stronger. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

Here are some comparisons of the two systems.
6-deck 4.5/6 S17 DAS LS 1-10
hi-lo 29.10 ko 27.36

6-deck 5.5/6 S17 DAS LS 1-10
hi-lo 85.26 ko 82.83

Golfnut do you have the specific rules of the 6 deck game you play?