LV and others that play for a living

[airasia]

A few questions:

How much do you win per hour? And by betting how much?

Do you use any strategies other than Hi-Lo and strategy adjustments for Hi-Lo?

How much of a bankroll should or did you start with?

I'm making all these posts to those making a living because I'm beginning to seriously consider doing it. Even though in previous posts, people say that it's tough, I think I'm willing to go through the ups and downs just to have the luxury of independence.

 

[eyesfor21]

for a living

-win per hr depends on too many factors..
-bk some days its larger than others,and are top
bet is a % of the bk.
-it may be better to work at something other than blackjack
and then have a larger sum of money first..
-the game can be brutal,especially when the dealer is not busting
and making hand after hand,and you want to win..you will
learn there is so much more to the game than the count.When
this happens what do you do,that is the question...the answer is
not adressed in books.We all do not believe in myths..but the variance
happens as are edge is not too big at all.Team mit had a month where
they got creamed.
Yes, you better learn a lot more than the basic counting disciplines.
how about perfect bjack strategy..which involves memorizing every
single card and has its own complete indices..Very difficult to learn
but a lot more powerful.,,,once again few discuss this method in books.

Its up to you..

 

[Charlie Chang]

Newbie info.

Bankroll,
you should have at least 1,000 times your unit of choice.

In other words if you want to make $USD10. your unit then
you need 10 times 1,000 equals USD.10k. This is somewhat
conservative but you need lots of money to put up with the
ups and downs of this game.
regards
Charlie Chang

 

[Hal Jordan]

On Independence

Make sure to really look over all of the facts before you quit your day job.

One aspect new players often overlook is the dependence that AP's have on the casino industry. Games dry up, players migrate. A true professional that is grinding out a living does not have the freedom that you might think. They need to play the shifts, at the locations, that offer the greatest advantage. This may mean waking up to begin work at 3AM and having dinner at 3PM. The beginning stages are not Ian Anderson-like days, filled with swimming, fruit, and private tables. If one is ever to reach a level of true independence, it must come at the end of many sittings at such classy establishments as the El Cortez or Western.

I like Schlesinger's prose on the symbiotic relationship that an AP must have with the casino. When looking at it in this manner, although the obligations are different, it is difficult to discern whether or not more freedom is truly what is achieved by being a professional player.

HJ

 

[Sonny]

Well said

> A true professional that is grinding out a living does not have the freedom
> that you might think. They need to play the shifts, at the locations, that
> offer the greatest advantage.

Excellent points. Don't forget about the fact that you will probably have to travel quite a bit. As the games dry up you will have to know where to look next, and don't expect other APs to tell you where the next big score is. The next game might be across the country or across the world. Sometimes the good games are gone by the time you get there.

It takes a lot more than learning how to count and moving to Las Vegas...just ask anyone in Henderson.

-Sonny-

 

[Sonny]

Are you sure?

> How much do you win per hour? And by betting how much?
>
> Do you use any strategies other than Hi-Lo and strategy adjustments
> for Hi-Lo?
>
> How much of a bankroll should or did you start with?

No offense, but if you don't know the answers to these questions you are not ready to play full time. You will need at least another year of studying and practice before you should consider playing seriously. Keep reading these posts and asking questions, and check out other websites like bjmath.com and qfit.com. And of course, you will have to READ, READ, READ! Then read some more!

> I'm making all these posts to those making a living because I'm beginning to
> seriously consider doing it. Even though in previous posts, people say that
> it's tough, I think I'm willing to go through the ups and downs just to have
> the luxury of independence.

Are you sure? I don't play full time (and probably couldn't), but maybe I can share a few quotes from the highlights of my career with you:

"I've played for 50 hours and haven't won any money, but all the second-hand smoke really makes it worthwhile."

"I lost a lot of money last month. If I play 108 more hours I can expect to get back to where I was at the beginning of the year, but that'll take the rest of the year. Oh well, maybe I'll win next year."

After several big winning sessions - "I played for a whole hour and only won 2 units?! This stinks! I need a bigger EV."

After several losing sessions - "Hooray, I won 2 units! I need a bigger EV."

"It is 5:00 am and I've been walking around Downtown for 2 hours without finding a single playable game. It must be better to play a bad game with a tiny EV than waste my time walking around..." - Dangerous thinking!!!!!!

Driving home from Vegas:

Me: "Fifteen hours of blackjack and I still lost 80 units."
Wife: "But the food was fantastic, and how about that pool!"
Me: "What pool?"

You've got a long way to go but you are on the right track. We look forward to hearing from you more very soon.

 

[airasia]

i know the general answers, but

I just wanted to hear from the real people that actually do it. I've read Professional Blackjack and about win rates and bankroll and things like that, but I want to know if everything he says in the book is exactly true and/or needed to make a living by finding out what the players have to say about their own experiences. I'm not exactly asking for technical answers like I don't need to know that if you bet 100 dollars on average you'll win 20 dollars per hour, etc. Also, having to travel and move around isn't that discouraging...

 

[airasia]

And you're right

I am not ready to play full time, first of all, I'm not old enough to play legally and do not know exactly which places to start, second I'm still in college taking a year off, and third I do not have the bankroll yet, just starting to build it by working and playing some poker. I have the Hi-Lo count and strategy numbers almost mastered (all the important ones mastered) and I've been simulating a two-deck game at home, but youre absolutely right, I'm not ready to play full time by any means. It is one of my short term goals though for the next few years.

 

[Sonny]

Check these out

> I've read Professional Blackjack and about win rates and bankroll and things
> like that, but I want to know if everything he says in the book is exactly
> true and/or needed to make a living by finding out what the players have to
> say about their own experiences.

I would suggest that you read "Las Vegas Blackjack Diary" by Stuart Perry. It will give you a very good idea of what it is like to scout casinos and play full time. Also, "Blackjack Autumn" by Barry Meadows is a good read. It is a little more entertaining in my opinion, but Blackjack Diary is more realistic. It will give you a good idea of what it is like trying to grind out a living in Las Vegas.

-Sonny-

 

[LV Bear]

It's not easy

You will need to branch out to other forms of advantage play besides blackjack. There are few professional players nowadays who just count cards at blackjack. Most have other skills they put to use in casinos. Casinos contain other advantage situations, none of which will be discussed publicly on a message board, because they are too fragile. Remember that casino personnel read these boards, too. Educating one's opponents is not a good idea.

You stated that you are very young. Youthful appearance can work against you if you frequently get hassled for ID to prove you're of legal age. Also, if you look as young as you are, betting reasonable amounts of money will look unusual to pit personnel, again inviting unwanted scrutiny.

I wouldn't recommend playing full time until you have some casino experience. You may find you don't like it, or can't deal with the constant hassles from casino personnel.
My suggestion is to continue your education, and see if other life opportunities interest you. Build a bankroll through normal employment, and learn about casino advantage play part-time. Once you've played part-time for at least a year and have amassed a five-figure bankroll as a bare-bones minimum, you can start thinking about playing full time. With a small bankroll, you will need to grind coupons, exploit promotions, drawings, tournaments, etc., milk low-level comps (that's all the comps you'll get), put in a lot of hours, and keep your personal living expenses at an absolute minimum. When grinding at low levels, you must be careful not to let expenses eat you up. You cannot afford valet parking. You cannot afford to tip. Save, save, save; scrounge, scrounge, and scrounge. Pick up and use coupons others have thrown on the floor. Do not pass up anything of value, regardless of how small it is. Get your friends and neighbors to hand over whatever casino mail offers they won't use.

If I had it to do over again, I would not have considered playing full-time until my bankroll reached at least $50,000, which is still small compared to the bankrolls of most full-time players. Though I am well past that level now, when I started full-time play, my bankroll was a fraction of its current level. And I have the benefit of having a spouse with a good income. Without that second income, solo advantage play on a tiny bankroll is tough. If you want to do it bad enough, it can be done. But it is not easy, and it is even harder if you plan to use only blackjack card counting as your game. Plenty of blackjack opportunities still exist, but they are getting harder and harder to find, especially at low stakes.

I hope this helps. Actually, I hope I've talked you out of it. Good luck whatever you decide.

 

[Rob Vega]

Best Post Nomination

airasia,

I believe what LVBear just told you is better advice than you can find in a book. I would nominate is as a Best Post. I caught the bug was I was your (under)age and in very similar circumstances. I could dream of nothing better than to be a professional card counter. That was fifteen years ago, and I am still not a full-time card counter.

1. You may be thinking "I'll amass a couple grand and take a shot." No, no, no. You can't cover expenses betting red, and what's the point? Get a real career, gravitate west to Nevada or California, save up a real bankroll (and I'd say 10K isn't enough for the solo, full-time, non-married counter), play part-time for a long time (where you can cherry pick your games!). The question is, why shoot yourself in the foot? Make every decision from a situation of power and confidence.

2. It ain't all that great. While the dream of card counting is intoxicating, the reality isn't all that. Smoky, clanging, casinos at 5am, playing the same pre-determined strategy over and over again for years, with no marketable job skills if you want to move on? Not for everyone.

3. LVBear is dead-on about diversifying. In my head I refer to each of my skills as 'horses'. I can ride three or four horses right now and am working on a fifth. Moreover, my straight career is tailor-made for consulting, which may be considered another horse. Having multiple horses means I always have a fallback if counting goes very sour. It also means I never have to spin my wheels playing some low EV junk game.

Approach it carefully, like you're building a business, and never burn a bridge. There are tales of those who learned to count, took a flyer and never looked back. But like the busted sap who *lost* all his money betting red, you don't hear much about the counters who were inadequately prepared.

- Rob Vega

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Learn what it's like to win and lose first

As a weekend player I can tell you that I would want to be very, very, very well capitalized before quitting my real job and playing full time. I'm sure you've studied the Kelly Criterion, does it seem overly cautious and pessimistic? Let me tell you something, the downswings can be so bad that a person with normal psychology will suspect either cheating or the supernatural at work. How many times in a row can the dealer pull exactly the card he needs out of his ass? Answer: one more time. How many times in a row will you draw a 10 to a 12? One more time.

On the other hand, sometimes it will seem like you just can't lose. You'll win for so long that you can't even remember losing. And then it will hit you.

There's no independence. The casino can jerk the rug out from under you any time they want to. You'll also be exposed to every kind of bad habit, vice, and destructive personality in the book. Even as a part timer I'm utterly disgusted sometimes.

 

[Charlie Chang]

Bankroll

Yes, Bear
A bank of 50k is just right for someone starting.
It can cover one year expenses with around a green unit.
Charlie Chang