Mindplay 21 Device - Gaming Commision is INSANE!

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Abraham de Moivre

Well-Known Member
Mayor: I was reading the reply you received to your protest to the Mindplay 21 device.
I hope someone follows up on this, the logic used and interpretation of the law is so absurd
that it has to be challenged.

An amazing double speak and interpretation.

Consider the following from the Nevada Gambling Statues:

It is unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use,
any device to assist:
1. In projecting the outcome of the game.
2. In keeping track of the cards played.

Sounds like a straightforward statement, doesn't it? According to the Gaming Commission, the phrase "any person" actual means "patrons" of the casino, not the casino employees. I would think if they meant patrons, they would have used the word "patrons" or "the public", not "any person". I think the phrase "any person" means just that -- ANY PERSON. For this to not apply to casino employees, as the Commission is trying to run by you, would mean that casino employees are not people.

Consider this phrase from the Statues:

Public confidence and trust can only be maintained by strict regulation of ... distribution of gambling devices and equipment.

(hmmm... notice the use of PUBLIC CONFIDENCE, I wonder why it isn't ANY PERSON's confidence?)

However, according to this same source, the phrase "gambling device" actually means SLOT MACHINE, and so it doesn't apply to the MINDPLAY 21 device.

Using the non-logic they are trying to foist, consider a dealer using a "shiner" device to help peek at the top card in order to assist him in dealing seconds. Is the use of this "shiner" illegal?

NO, IT ISN'T! First off, it would be illegal (and is) for a patron to have or use a shiner. But the dealer is a casino employee, so it is perfectly all right for him to have this device to assist in keeping track of the cards played or projecting the outcome of the game. The use of these devices only applies to 'Any person' that means patrons -- remember?

How about a craps table using loaded dice? Perfectly all right. Those dice aren't gambling equipment, that only applies to slot machines -- remember?
 
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Rob McGarvey

Well-Known Member
WAR: The Easy Way to Win It

I'm not following this closely, but I would think the inventors of this device had their lawyers involved. It looks to me like it keeps track of the bets as well as the cards, but does not change the outcome of the game in any way. What they do with this information is another story. I work with very complex legal documents and I see people walking through loop holes every day.

Now, to attack head on is not the way. First it will depleat your bankroll. This is a true waste of energy. Firing letters at it will do nothing. The way to destroy MP21 is to abandon it, avoid it, and let it pass on like Becky Binions Horseshoe. If anything, spend your money telling people how it helps the casino cheat players, like we should be telling same about the CSM's. Good old fashioned semi fact based propaganda. Similar to what you will see from them about onLine gaming.

BLACKJACK PLAYERS BEWARE!

Have you ever seen blackjack dealt by a machine? Maybe your local casino is riping you off! These machines are designed to separate the cards to keep you from getting blackjacks! It takes the casino eight times less time to empty your pockets when they use these machines to deal to you with! Don't be stupid and play at these tables. Find a casino that does not deal from a machine!

MINDPLAY 21 DEVICE!

Some casinos don't let you know that they are playing with your mind when you play blackjack. These new machines designed from military technology keeps track of EVERYTHING that happens on the table. At lighting speed it calculates information that is sent to security personel. Your rights are being infringed on. You could make a large bet at the wrong time and be kicked out of the casino. They will question you or tell you can't play blackjack, or force you off the property calling you a counter or a table tracker.

Find a casino that does not play with your mind!

They are recording your face and adding it to a databank. Your name and licences plate #, credit rating, and your SS# all recorded. A computer can identify you in a second and you can be questioned for things that someone else may have done.

While you are on vacation you are being WATCHED!!

WELCOME TO THE NEW LAS VEGAS
 
L

learning to count

Well-Known Member
Re: WAR: The Easy Way to Win It

Excellent point Rob. Education is always a strong attack. Your right we have to get the message out. This is what this and other such sites are about educating everyone. Mindplay 21 is an obvious con job, a wolf in sheeps clothing. A co- counter friend in Vegas has an info paper that he passes out to ploppies about the evils of SF21,6/5 bj payouts, etc. I am carrying this as well and I have made copies. Get the word out!!!!!
 
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Cyrano

Well-Known Member
Stupid question...

What is this device everybody is referring to? I tried to search for it on 4 different search engines and came up with nothing. Can someone provide a link or something that tells me more and preferably a picture? Thanks.
 
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The Mayor

Well-Known Member
Thanks for your thoughts

We are in the process of drafting a response to their response in which we make some of the points you mentioned.

They are crazy. Here are guys in charge of making sure the casinos following the state gaming laws and they don't know the difference between "any person" and "any patron". Pure insanity.

--Mayor
 
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Rob McGarvey

Well-Known Member
Re: Thanks for your thoughts

You will actually be helping them out IMO unless you are taking them to court right off.
 
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Abraham de Moivre

Well-Known Member
Don't forget 'gambling devices'

'gambling device' specifically means 'slot machine' according to the letter.

SO loaded dice, marked cards, etc. are okay, they aren't gambling devices since they aren't slot machines, and none of the crooked gambling device rules apply.
 
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hammer

Well-Known Member
stop csm

the pure crap of all evil...print out a sheet on that..

as famous Canadian singer Neil Young says,"I've seen the needle
and the damage done".
 
I

ivy kid

Member
Re: Thanks for your thoughts

It sounds like the gaming commission is pretty steadfast about allowing the Mindplay computer - I would not write another letter to the commission.

Your first written complaint was thorough and well thought out. The commission reponded to your claims in what you believe was an insufficient and perhaps circumventive (it's a word now) letter. I think the next course of action, if you choose to take one, would be to seek a professional assesment of the situation and show the commission's written statement to a lawyer. Rob M. might be right - writing the commission again would give it a chance to amend its general (and perhaps faulty) reasoning and maintain its claim that Mindplay can be used. I say this: i

f you are convinced the commission has erred, make it stick to its original response. A consultation with a lawyer shouldn't be prohibitively expensive.
 
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Rob McGarvey

Well-Known Member
Re: stop csm

"I've seen CSM's and damage done
They take a little bit from everyone
Ouuuuuuuuuuu, ouuuuuuuuuu, the damage done"

Now where's my gee-tarr? ;> I prefer to play Cinamon Girl or

"Old man take a look at my life I'ma lot like you
Need someone ta love me the whole day thru
Just one look in my eyes and you can tell that's true"

"A Southern man don't need him around anyhow
Sweet home Alabama...."

Now that's a real twanger!

D C G fur if ya justartinta learn
 
S

Skug

Member
Mayor: Law school graduate trying to help

As a magna cum laude graduate of a ranked law school, I went to the law library to research the issue of whether "person" in NRS 465.075 includes only casino patrons and not casino employees or the casinos themselves.

First, I checked to see whether Chapter 465 explicitly defines "person", which it does not. I then checked to see whether any courts have construed NRS 465.075 as applying only to casino patrons, i.e., whether any courts have construed "person" in NRS 465.075 as including only casino patrons. As of the 2001, no court (state or federal) had construed NRS 465.075, except for a Nevada Supreme Court decision finding the term "device" is not unconstitutionally vague. See Sheriff, Clark County v. Anderson, 746 P.2d 643 (Nev. 1987). It's important to note that Nevada's courts, not its Gaming Control Board, decide the meaning of a statute, i.e., what the legislature intended.

I then checked to see whether the Nevada statutes provide any overarching definitions, i.e., those which apply to all Nevada statutes, as most state statutes do. To my delight, I found NRS 0.039, which states the following:

"Except as otherwise expressly provided in a particular statute or required by the context, 'person' means a natural person, any form of business or social organization and any other nongovernmental legal entity including, but not limited to, a corporation, partnership, association, trust or unincorporated organization."

See NRS 0.039 (2001) <http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-000.html>. Since "person" includes business organizations, such as casinos, and since NRS.075 (the "particular statute") does not define "person", the only question is whether "the context" of NRS 465.075 requires (a strong word) a different meaning of "person".

Playing devil's advocate, one could argue the context requires a different meaning of "person" because the phrase "at a licensed gaming establishment" immediately follows "person" in NRS 465.075, especially since NRS 465.070, which also proscribes forms of cheating, doesn't contain the limiting phrase.

However, a more sensible interpretation of the limiting phrase is that the legislature did not intend the statute to apply to sports bettors using home computers to project the outcome of games, i.e., the limiting phrase limits the conduct, not the persons, subject to the statute. Even more persuasive is the argument that if the legislature had intended "person" not to include casino employees or the casinos, the legislature would have explicitly exempted them from NRS 465.075, as was done by the legislature in NRS 465.080(4), which states the following:

"It is unlawful for any person, not a duly authorized employee of a licensee acting in furtherance of his employment within an establishment, to have on his person or in his possession on or off the premises of any licensed gaming establishment any key or device known to have been designed for the purpose of and suitable for opening, entering or affecting the operation of any gambling game, cashless wagering system or drop box, or any electronic or mechanical device connected thereto, or for removing money or other contents therefrom."

Lastly, as a practical matter, the Gaming Board responds that a casino could manually track cards and reshuffle even without the device. We too can manually track cards and vary our bets and play accordingly. However, if we use a computer to track cards, we are felons, like the gambler in Sheriff v. Anderson.
 
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