mirroring bets

[blackchipjim]

I had a unnerving experience the other day playing at my favorite casino. I was playing the table and relaxing with the others it was a low limit so I decided to play all and cast caution to the wind. I was having a good time and able to use a full 1to 12 spread on this table with no heat. Then after a shoe or two I noticed that a lady at the table started to mirror my bets. The count goes up, I bet up, she bets up the counts go down I bet down she bets down. Her husband had whispered something to her and walked away a while back but I thought nothing of it. I even tried to trip her up by flip flopping with no avail. This started to unerve me but heck I was having a good time. I did eventually leave but before I really wanted. blackchipjim

 

[21forme]

I've had a similar thing happen in the past, though not quite as large a spread by the copycat.

The other day, I was at a table and spread to 2 hands when the count went up. Asian guy next to me freaks out about messing up the flow and guy next to him says "don't worry about him, he knows what he's doing." Didn't like that comment!

 

[SecurityRisk]

One time I was playing and I made a play that's correct, but most ploppies think is incorrect. I forgot what it was. It was something like hitting a soft 18 against a dealer's ten or hitting a twelve vs. a three or something like that. Player at the table told me it was the wrong move. I say no, it's the right move. Dealer turns to that player and says "He's a very good player. Don't tell him what to do." Uh oh...

 

[ihate17]

the question becomes:

Are you frequenting that place too often, getting too well known and will this all lead to an eventual backoff?

A backoff can come at any time. There was a casino that appeared to have a very tolerant attitude years ago, or liked my act or whatever but I had gone there so often, gained a reputation and knew that they knew I understood the game very well. My bet level was lower then but not really low but the tolerance disappeared when one shift manager was replaced.
It can be a change in personel, a meeting they stage where they say to their people that counters are taking us or your pissing off their biggest losing whale at a table and the next thing you know you are gone. Or you just may never know why.

I believe since you most likely have already blown your cover that you should just continue to play at whatever level you usually play. Do not worry about the axe falling, just play but when or if it does fall, do not be overly surprised.

ihate17

 

[EasyRhino]

Was the mirrorer literally matching your bets, even if you made a non-correlated bet to the count?

 

[SecurityRisk]

Are you frequenting that place too often, getting too well known and will this all lead to an eventual backoff?

A backoff can come at any time. There was a casino that appeared to have a very tolerant attitude years ago, or liked my act or whatever but I had gone there so often, gained a reputation and knew that they knew I understood the game very well. My bet level was lower then but not really low but the tolerance disappeared when one shift manager was replaced.
It can be a change in personel, a meeting they stage where they say to their people that counters are taking us or your pissing off their biggest losing whale at a table and the next thing you know you are gone. Or you just may never know why.

I believe since you most likely have already blown your cover that you should just continue to play at whatever level you usually play. Do not worry about the axe falling, just play but when or if it does fall, do not be overly surprised.

ihate17

I'm afraid it's a little late for this place. I think I was playing there two often. This happened a long time ago. A few months after this incident, they started half-shoeing me. They never asked me to leave, but they half-shoed me more than once. I haven't been there for over a year. I'm thinking about going back and seeing what happens.

 

[sagefr0g]

......, a meeting they stage where they say to their people that counters are taking us or your pissing off their biggest losing whale at a table and the next thing you know you are gone. ........

yep thats one you want to watch out for. like we all have this attitude that the flow of the cards ectl. is just ploppy bull$*@#. but we need to be to some degree sensitive and not piss of some casino whale cause we are changing from one hand to two and back..... things like that.
lol, i know cause i just had that experience and i think i was lucky to realize the danger and modulated my actions accordingly.

 

[BlackjackMan312]

I had a ploppy say out loud with the pit boss standing right there (reffering to me: Does this guy ever bet wrong?") LOL

 

[ihate17]

Good common sense

yep thats one you want to watch out for. like we all have this attitude that the flow of the cards ectl. is just ploppy bull$*@#. but we need to be to some degree sensitive and not piss of some casino whale cause we are changing from one hand to two and back..... things like that.
lol, i know cause i just had that experience and i think i was lucky to realize the danger and modulated my actions accordingly.

The guy is easy to recognize. He bets a lot of money and the casino folks fall all over themselves for him (actually for his wallet).
It also matters whether you frequent this place or not.
Often I frequent a place where there is one guy I run into often who flat bets the table max of two hands consistantly and I quickly noticed he does not like how I play. Since he always plays two hands and I might go from 1-2-3 hands late in a shoe, he never hits 12 vs 2 (god forbid against a 3), split 9's or do anything but stay on soft 18, I will never be sure just what about my play he dislikes except perhaps all of it.
Anyway, once I learned this I never sit down at his table and feel that the casino should compensate me somehow for not disturbing a guy playing at a big deficit to them. Has it earned me any points with this casino? Probably not but my avoiding the guy perhaps has not earned me any extra negative attention.

ihate17

 

[sagefr0g]

The guy is easy to recognize. He bets a lot of money and the casino folks fall all over themselves for him (actually for his wallet).
It also matters whether you frequent this place or not.
Often I frequent a place where there is one guy I run into often who flat bets the table max of two hands consistantly and I quickly noticed he does not like how I play. Since he always plays two hands and I might go from 1-2-3 hands late in a shoe, he never hits 12 vs 2 (god forbid against a 3), split 9's or do anything but stay on soft 18, I will never be sure just what about my play he dislikes except perhaps all of it.
Anyway, once I learned this I never sit down at his table and feel that the casino should compensate me somehow for not disturbing a guy playing at a big deficit to them. Has it earned me any points with this casino? Probably not but my avoiding the guy perhaps has not earned me any extra negative attention.

ihate17

i know what you mean. it's quite a phenomenon isn't it? the way that some people virtually shovel their money into the casino couffers. whales....
it really can be a heart rending thing to watch. and yet you can be sitting right there at the table with them and feeling sorry for their plight while at the same time they might be redirecting their self frustration at you instead of themselves. probably because you hit or didn't hit a sixteen or spread to two hands or something lol. and as you say there are the vultures in the background flattering and coddling the flailing whale. strange world a casino is to be sure. alice in wonderland looking glass sort of thing lol. and here we are grinding away hoping the red heart queen doesn't go off with our heads lol.

 

[blackchipjim]

mirror mirror on the......

I have a pretty good reptoire with the pit they know me by sight as a regular. I know not to overstay my welcome and gaurd against jerks on either side of the table blowing it for me. I hit and run and chip away at the big pile of money that they have. Ploppies can be dangerous as can whales when they are losing. A big bettor that is losing can turn on a small potatoes guy like myself who is making correct bets and plays right along. I did have a guy with what seemed like endless wads of cash turn to me after losing his ass and say " I wish I had your luck and my money". blackchipjim:eyepatch:

 

[aslan]

i know what you mean. it's quite a phenomenon isn't it? the way that some people virtually shovel their money into the casino couffers. whales....
it really can be a heart rending thing to watch. and yet you can be sitting right there at the table with them and feeling sorry for their plight while at the same time they might be redirecting their self frustration at you instead of themselves. probably because you hit or didn't hit a sixteen or spread to two hands or something lol. and as you say there are the vultures in the background flattering and coddling the flailing whale. strange world a casino is to be sure. alice in wonderland looking glass sort of thing lol. and here we are grinding away hoping the red heart queen doesn't go off with our heads lol.

I was sitting at a $25 table at Mandalay Bay when this guy sits down and never stops talking. He tells me never to hit a 16 no matter what. He tries to tell me how to play every hand. He says he is behind $30,000 for the week and just flew back to town to try and get even. He gets so much under my skin I have ot leave the table. I know if I say anything, the house will (should) side with him--after all, they're into him for $30 K. Finally, I return and he has gone, but the table has jumped to $50. The PB, a nice lady, lets me back in at $25--bless her. I got back what I was losing plus another $600.

But can you imagine a guy losing $30,000 trying to teach (or should I say demand) others how to play the game? I was biting my tongue so often so as not to tell him what an idiot he was I had to get out--plus he was breathing down my neck stretching over my shoulder (or so it seemed) so he could tell me how to play each hand. Yikes! Give me a break!

 

[EasyRhino]

But can you imagine a guy losing $30,000 trying to teach (or should I say demand) others how to play the game?

Okay, fine, you could have just told me that you didn't want my advice!

 

[aslan]

Okay, fine, you could have just told me that you didn't want my advice!

Get outta here! lol

 

[ihate17]

Maybe I am hard but he is a big boy

There perhaps once was a time where I felt sorry for some of these guys but that day passed quickly.
This kind of player makes the casino very profitable, which I have no problem skimming a bit from. He is also an adult and the casino does not super glue him to his chair. The amount of money he plays is relative. He might have hundreds of millions and losing a hundred thousand might be the same to him as losing a few thousand to me. It is my understanding that he plays about 3 days per week, has done this for years and one must guess his pockets are deep.

ihate17

i know what you mean. it's quite a phenomenon isn't it? the way that some people virtually shovel their money into the casino couffers. whales....
it really can be a heart rending thing to watch. and yet you can be sitting right there at the table with them and feeling sorry for their plight while at the same time they might be redirecting their self frustration at you instead of themselves. probably because you hit or didn't hit a sixteen or spread to two hands or something lol. and as you say there are the vultures in the background flattering and coddling the flailing whale. strange world a casino is to be sure. alice in wonderland looking glass sort of thing lol. and here we are grinding away hoping the red heart queen doesn't go off with our heads lol.

 

[ihate17]

A good decision though I know you were tempted

When a guy drops a ton (much depends on what his average bet was, at $1,000 per hand he is only down 30 units) and tells you how to play, it is very tempting to let him know that copying a method that loses 30 grand is not your goal at the table. Your decision to not take him to task is a good one because you are correct in thinking that he is a beloved player.

ihate17

I was sitting at a $25 table at Mandalay Bay when this guy sits down and never stops talking. He tells me never to hit a 16 no matter what. He tries to tell me how to play every hand. He says he is behind $30,000 for the week and just flew back to town to try and get even. He gets so much under my skin I have ot leave the table. I know if I say anything, the house will (should) side with him--after all, they're into him for $30 K. Finally, I return and he has gone, but the table has jumped to $50. The PB, a nice lady, lets me back in at $25--bless her. I got back what I was losing plus another $600.

But can you imagine a guy losing $30,000 trying to teach (or should I say demand) others how to play the game? I was biting my tongue so often so as not to tell him what an idiot he was I had to get out--plus he was breathing down my neck stretching over my shoulder (or so it seemed) so he could tell me how to play each hand. Yikes! Give me a break!

 

[jack.jackson]

Ploppy vs Ploppy.

I was sitting at a $25 table at Mandalay Bay when this guy sits down and never stops talking. He tells me never to hit a 16 no matter what. He tries to tell me how to play every hand. He says he is behind $30,000 for the week and just flew back to town to try and get even. He gets so much under my skin I have ot leave the table. I know if I say anything, the house will (should) side with him--after all, they're into him for $30 K. Finally, I return and he has gone, but the table has jumped to $50. The PB, a nice lady, lets me back in at $25--bless her. I got back what I was losing plus another $600.

But can you imagine a guy losing $30,000 trying to teach (or should I say demand) others how to play the game? I was biting my tongue so often so as not to tell him what an idiot he was I had to get out--plus he was breathing down my neck stretching over my shoulder (or so it seemed) so he could tell me how to play each hand. Yikes! Give me a break!

You'll never avoid it. Its everywhere you go everwhere in life. A BS card might of been an easy way to explain the logic to him. If not, sometimes just try completely Ignoring him. They actually expect it, because they're use to it. Trust me.
You also must realize now matter how well or how poorly you play, their will always be at least one person at the table telling you, how to play your hand.Even the dealers. Sometimes I wonder what the ploopies go through. I mean if im playing BS 90% of the time, I can only Imagine the arguements the ploppys get into. Must be a riot...lol.
Nevertheless I try to avoid third base, if at all possible, Since I deviate from BS about 10% of the time.

 

[aslan]

Nevertheless I try to avoid third base, if at all possible, Since I deviate from BS about 10% of the time.

When to play third base, I generally ask the table if it is okay to hit a 12 against a dealer 2, for instance, to which the table usually, but not always, tells me to go ahead, it's my money. Occasionally, someone will ask me not to hit, and I usually comply since it's a marginal call anyway. In this way, if I lose taking their advice, they are quick to tell me to do what I want the next time such a decision comes up, since they don't want to feel responsible for someone else losing their money. But when it comes to hitting 16 or not, I believe it's more than marginal and I don't want some yahoo telling me to play it their way. Plus, like you say, with preferred strategies, I switch back and forth according to the count. The yahoos will say, "At least you could be consistent!" What was that about the hobgoblin of little minds?

 

[blackchipjim]

on the back side

I play third or directly to the right of it most of the time. I have a alot of grief at that postion but hey I got thick skin. I'm fairly good sized and not too many people talk ^%%$ to me about how I play. I have sat there and got nothing over 15 time and time again. I play my game if someone challenges my plays I offer to switch seats with the genius. I have yet to have one change seats with me. I have also seen alot of dealers laugh after the idiots leave the table and only me and the dealer get down to business. blackchipjim

 

[sagefr0g]

You'll never avoid it. Its everywhere you go everwhere in life. A BS card might of been an easy way to explain the logic to him. ..........

lol, thats a good one, life imitates blackjack just as i always suspected.....
:grin: if we only had a BS card for life.

Quote:
When to play third base, I generally ask the table if it is okay to hit a 12 against a dealer 2, for instance, to which the table usually, but not always, tells me to go ahead, it's my money. Occasionally, someone will ask me not to hit, and I usually comply since it's a marginal call anyway. In this way, if I lose taking their advice, they are quick to tell me to do what I want the next time such a decision comes up, since they don't want to feel responsible for someone else losing their money........
..........

lol, i've tryed this also where when i had a 16vX and i ask the whale hey you got the big money out what do you want me to do? the idiot looks perplexed then says stand the dealer will get the bust card. so it doesn't work and the dealer wins lol. then later on even though i offered the whale this option the goof gets mad at me cause i spread to two hands and switch back to one a few times. lol