Multiple Count Advantage

[Rapt0rzzz]

I was reading earlier and came across the (supposed) best systems for PE, BE, and IE. I was wondering what kinda of total advantage increase would be gained if, hypothetically, one could play each of those systems at the same time.

For BE the source named Thorp's Ultimate Point Count which has a BE of 100%

For IE the Insurance Count was obviously used which has a IE of 100%

And for PE, the count system used was the "Strategy Variation Optimal System" which has a PE of 70.3% Although I believe this could technically be raised to 100% if each individual card was taken into account or something.

If a player could play a count system with 100% BE, 70.3% PE, and 100% IE, what would be their edge over a player using HiLo? (BE=97%, PE=51%, and IE=79%)

What if the first player could have a PE of 100% also? The rules could be anything, but I would say 6d, DAS, DA2, s17, 75% pen, full index, 1-12 spread. I don't think it matters since both would have the same rules either way and I only want to compare how one performs against the other.

I don't know how to possibly do this with the simulators I have found online. These only allow one system to be used at a time and I don't know how to take the individual PE,BE,IE results from each one and combine them into a whole. I'm assuming the more advanced/expensive simulators can give the option of using multiple systems at the same time and using each PE,BE, and IE independently.

I'm guessing the gain won't be too significant, especially if a PE of only 70.3% is used. HiLo already has a high BE and the IE isn't too far off. Anyway, if anyone can do anything like this or explain how or point me to a simulator that can do it that would be great. It's interesting to see what kind of edge you can get if you truly played the absolute best possible way.

 

[checkmugged]

A PE of 100% is quite impossible. The problem lies in that each card is assigned a single value. The middle cards are the biggest problem, 7s, 8s, and 9s. Sometimes these cards act as small cards, sometimes the very same cards behave as large cards.

What are the BE, IE, PE for the counts that are currently used? Your normal hi/lo counts or whatever ... I just want a comparison.

Wish I could help with your actual question but I doubt there's any sim currently out there that could handle adjusting for a much higher PE.

Checkmugged

 

[Rapt0rzzz]

Why would a PE of 100% be impossible? Here's a quote from the website:

"Although I called the "playing" count an 'optimal' system, it's really only the optimum for a single-parameter count. Don't confuse 'parameter' with 'level', however. A single-level count uses point values of 1, 0 or -1 but a single-parameter count just uses a total point value for all your decisions. We'll cover multi-parameter counts, which use a side-count of the number of remaining cards (like Aces) by type, in the next lesson. It's certainly possible to achieve a playing efficiency of almost 100% by keeping track of each type of card separately. Now understand that 100% efficiency doesn't mean you'll win every hand, because you still don't know the order in which the cards will appear, but in 'the long run' order doesn't matter; it will eventually work out to be random."

Seems to make sense to me although I don't really know how to use the information to make a multi-parameter count.

I really just want to know how much greater of an edge would I have with a BE, PE, and IE of 100% than that of my edge using HiLo. I'm not sure that the rules matter because the two simulations would be compared to each other which both have to use those rules. So the results should still be proportional no matter what rules. I just listed some in case it did indeed matter.

So, what is the edge for the above game with a PE=51%, BE=97%, and IE=79%

and what is the edge for the above game with PE=100%, BE=100%, and IE=100%?

 

[blackjack avenger]

Does Not Add Much

Why don't you start with a really strong count to begin with? An example is Halves with an ace side count. One would have a high betting correlation and the strategy and insurance decisions would be improved. However, in multi deck play the ace side count does not add much. Ace side counting is a little out dated with more multi deck games and the knowledge of how powerful simpler systems are. I don't think Wong recommends an ace side count. There is not enough bang considering the mental effort required.

 

[sagefr0g]

not exactly what your looking for but CVCX can do quick comparisons of canned sims. and there are a lot of canned sims in CVCX. then you would know what efficiencies these counts have and interpret the results accordingly. you can also create your own sims. so perhaps you might come close to doing what your interested in. i've never attempted doing it.

 

[Rapt0rzzz]

Thanks for the replies so far. I'm disappointed to hear that there really hasn't been a simulation for this done. I think it would be interesting to know just what kind of edge a player could get if he could sit down at a BJ table with a program on his laptop running different counts - 100% BE, 100% PE, and 100% IE - all with a perfect TC conversion and all indexes used perfectly.

I'm skeptical that it would be much higher than the edge gained with single count such as HiLo. Isn't it somewhat common for pairs of counters to play together with one counting normally while the other uses an insurance count in order to gain a near 100% BE and a 100% IE? I don't see the difference in PE increasing one's edge too drastically but that is really a guess as I really don't know the result of PE in terms of %advantage.

I kind of assumed that if this offered a huge increase in edge, counters would be using it somehow.

 

[zengrifter]

Thanks for the replies so far. I'm disappointed to hear that there really hasn't been a simulation for this done. I think it would be interesting to know just what kind of edge a player could get if he could sit down at a BJ table with a program on his laptop running different counts - 100% BE, 100% PE, and 100% IE - all with a perfect TC conversion and all indexes used perfectly.

Maybe double regular HiLo top20. zg

 

[jack.jackson]

1. Gordon count w/all side counts for PE. .95%

2. The RAPC'73 BE. 100%

3. 111111110-2 IC. 98%

The most powerful ace-reckoned balanced system is 3345420-1-4-4

 

[Sonny]

Isn't it somewhat common for pairs of counters to play together with one counting normally while the other uses an insurance count in order to gain a near 100% BE and a 100% IE?

It’s far more common to have them playing at different tables and doubling/tripling their EV instead of playing at the same table an increasing their EV by a few tenths of a percent.

-Sonny-

 

[Rapt0rzzz]

That makes sense. I don't really know how much advantage is gained by changing one's IE from 79%(HL) to 100% - that was the whole point of this post. Does it really amount to a few tenths of a percent? Have people run simulations to see what the gain in edge is with an increase of 21% IE? If so I would think someone has run a simulation to see the gain in advantage if a player has 100% BE, IE, and PE. If it's significant it might be worth attempting. Just curious...