Must read --
- Thread starter The Mayor
- Start date
Big Cowboy
Well-Known Member
Mr. Mayor, that's all information most of us on this site know very well already. The issue is to get this information out to the masses, so they know that they are essentially playing a sucker game. Personally, I feel no sympathy for anyone who is stupid enough to play a game with these rules. It's amazing to me that people would throw their hard-earned money and have sucker branded on their foreheads by playing 6:5 (21). I can't even call it blackjack since it isn't. Why don't people do a little research before going to Vegas? It must be a whole lot of "fun" to lose money.
The point of my posting the link was not to inform the very informed readers of this site about the menace of 6:5, it was to point out that the fight against it is gaining increasing support in the media.
I ask all the readers to contribute to the fight against the decline of blackjack, in whatever way works for them.
--Mayor
I ask all the readers to contribute to the fight against the decline of blackjack, in whatever way works for them.
--Mayor
educating the masses is a daunting task indeed...
try lurking on some of the "ploppy" boards. thereon, lately, are recurring threads about the 6:5 21 game. these threads are sometimes initiated by "advantage" or at least, basic strategy players. the responses by many message board "regulars" are astounding. often the response is that the extra edge is small and they go to lv to lose anyway. others state that the casinos have to make money to be able to offer all the other attractions. though the joints' holds hover around 16-20% on 21 games, these punters apparently think that's not enough. oddly, these same punters will whine about some bank of 9:6 vp games being 86'd in favor of 8:6 pay tables.
good news is that with an apparent, bottomless pit of such visitors, lv joints will continue to prosper. my taxes will stay reasonable. bad news is that as long as the joe sixpack punters fill those 6:5 game seats, the joints have to maintain, possibly expand, the number. worst case scenario is that those games will predominate, making room for the next "advancement"...the even money snapper game.
so far, not seen in these latest threads is a reference to the "hold" percentages of nevada casinos for the 3:2 21 games. perhaps if these same, usually vp players in the main, were aware of the huge hold already on those 3:2 games, they'd get fired up when the joints are apparently trying to cross 25% hold with the 6:5 payouts.
try lurking on some of the "ploppy" boards. thereon, lately, are recurring threads about the 6:5 21 game. these threads are sometimes initiated by "advantage" or at least, basic strategy players. the responses by many message board "regulars" are astounding. often the response is that the extra edge is small and they go to lv to lose anyway. others state that the casinos have to make money to be able to offer all the other attractions. though the joints' holds hover around 16-20% on 21 games, these punters apparently think that's not enough. oddly, these same punters will whine about some bank of 9:6 vp games being 86'd in favor of 8:6 pay tables.
good news is that with an apparent, bottomless pit of such visitors, lv joints will continue to prosper. my taxes will stay reasonable. bad news is that as long as the joe sixpack punters fill those 6:5 game seats, the joints have to maintain, possibly expand, the number. worst case scenario is that those games will predominate, making room for the next "advancement"...the even money snapper game.
so far, not seen in these latest threads is a reference to the "hold" percentages of nevada casinos for the 3:2 21 games. perhaps if these same, usually vp players in the main, were aware of the huge hold already on those 3:2 games, they'd get fired up when the joints are apparently trying to cross 25% hold with the 6:5 payouts.
Automatic Monkey
Banned
Read it. It might help put the nails in the coffin of 6:5. Remember BJ rules used to be much worse than that and people did stop playing and the games did get better. And these days, casinos have much higher overhead and can afford to lose players even less. It'll get better.
Rob McGarvey
Well-Known Member
Re: educating the masses is a daunting task indeed...
This is SO true, even within the AP community. We all search for a game we can beat, pick BJ poker, sports of Tbred horses, or some combo of the same. Then you see an amazing opportunity, test it, see that it works and think, HEY! I've got to tell people about this! We all have had these feelings. I'm sure we have all tried to explain to a family member or spouse about our BJ edge. Oh how exicted we were, and oh how boringly they took our excitment. Fear of the unknown, getting the standard programmed replies, it is disheartening. How do you break through to the people? To smart minded AP's too?
For each person it can be a different stimuli. Some people just need to see the money. "Show me the money!" ;> Some need to know someone else that they trust has tried it and succeeded. Some just need a run through the math of it all. Or it could be a combination of these and other factors. Some players just like to play the game they already know. A BJ counter has more brains than a slot fiend but can be just as stuborn, if not worse, when you try to present them with the plain and simple facts. It is the herd mentality. It is on BJ21 (where this message was originally posted) and other boards, and alive in 6:5 Las Vegas casinos. Fortunately there is, let me call it a silent minority, mixed in with all the cud chewers, that can be reached, or have already gone for the upgrade.
I'm sure if you were in a casino and you found a BS player looking for a table you could convince them to go for the 3:2 table instead of the 6:5 one. You have to be present and available. If you could help one person a week I'm sure you would feel happy with yourself. (I know that I do) Maybe the next time you are out playing you will take the time to teach one player about the evils of 6:5 BJ.
Unfortunatley no one really cares about our 6:5 problem. You will have to be like Greenpeace and go pirate on them before you will get any attention. There is also a problem with what motivates you and what you have to gain from it. I think we want to save 3:2 for our own good, not for the sake of the masses. There is a big compassion level difference to be found between saving 3:2, and a species of whale, or dolphins from tuna hunters. I also think that other players are jealous of our ability to beat the game, and would rather we couldn't win and join the herd of cud chewers. It is easier for them to see us as cheaters rather than skilled players and join the fight for better games. I think all you have going for you is competition in LV. There will always be a 3:2 game to play........
This is SO true, even within the AP community. We all search for a game we can beat, pick BJ poker, sports of Tbred horses, or some combo of the same. Then you see an amazing opportunity, test it, see that it works and think, HEY! I've got to tell people about this! We all have had these feelings. I'm sure we have all tried to explain to a family member or spouse about our BJ edge. Oh how exicted we were, and oh how boringly they took our excitment. Fear of the unknown, getting the standard programmed replies, it is disheartening. How do you break through to the people? To smart minded AP's too?
For each person it can be a different stimuli. Some people just need to see the money. "Show me the money!" ;> Some need to know someone else that they trust has tried it and succeeded. Some just need a run through the math of it all. Or it could be a combination of these and other factors. Some players just like to play the game they already know. A BJ counter has more brains than a slot fiend but can be just as stuborn, if not worse, when you try to present them with the plain and simple facts. It is the herd mentality. It is on BJ21 (where this message was originally posted) and other boards, and alive in 6:5 Las Vegas casinos. Fortunately there is, let me call it a silent minority, mixed in with all the cud chewers, that can be reached, or have already gone for the upgrade.
I'm sure if you were in a casino and you found a BS player looking for a table you could convince them to go for the 3:2 table instead of the 6:5 one. You have to be present and available. If you could help one person a week I'm sure you would feel happy with yourself. (I know that I do) Maybe the next time you are out playing you will take the time to teach one player about the evils of 6:5 BJ.
Unfortunatley no one really cares about our 6:5 problem. You will have to be like Greenpeace and go pirate on them before you will get any attention. There is also a problem with what motivates you and what you have to gain from it. I think we want to save 3:2 for our own good, not for the sake of the masses. There is a big compassion level difference to be found between saving 3:2, and a species of whale, or dolphins from tuna hunters. I also think that other players are jealous of our ability to beat the game, and would rather we couldn't win and join the herd of cud chewers. It is easier for them to see us as cheaters rather than skilled players and join the fight for better games. I think all you have going for you is competition in LV. There will always be a 3:2 game to play........
I agree with you AM. When these ploppies realize that $100 lasts them 1 hour instead of 3, it won't take long for the game to die. I was in Mississippi a few months ago and saw that most of the tables were pretty full. I saw an empty single deck table and my mouth was watering. When I got a little closer I saw the 6:5 sign. I asked the dealer "Why should I play this game when Bj only pays 6:5?" He just shrugged. I continued to watch the table while I found a better place to play. The ploppies would come and go, but no one would stay for more than a few minutes. Time will tell, but I believe that 6:5 BJ will not last.
that, i've done...
every day or so, when i visit a joint for somesuch reason, i'll casually comment on the legitimacy of a 6:5 game. and, i always look for a green table/player to express the comment. perhaps if at least the green + tables/players are chased away or come out of their coma, the joints *may* 86 the short pay tables, or at least offer them only on the low min tables. that's the most likely scenario... offer the sh*tty rule games on the cheapie tables. that'd make sense, same as the low min tables are the first to be converted to the 6 or 8d shoes. hey, add a celeb impersonator dealer, or focus the game in a "party pit", and the unannointed players will fill the stools. remember that the low end tables, those which historically hold $5-600/day, are the first to be "tightened up" or 86'd in favor of the slot department's use.
long run result should be that the "big" games will be maintained @ 3:2, but will earn dedicated surveillance.
that's the way i'd lay out the 21 games.
every day or so, when i visit a joint for somesuch reason, i'll casually comment on the legitimacy of a 6:5 game. and, i always look for a green table/player to express the comment. perhaps if at least the green + tables/players are chased away or come out of their coma, the joints *may* 86 the short pay tables, or at least offer them only on the low min tables. that's the most likely scenario... offer the sh*tty rule games on the cheapie tables. that'd make sense, same as the low min tables are the first to be converted to the 6 or 8d shoes. hey, add a celeb impersonator dealer, or focus the game in a "party pit", and the unannointed players will fill the stools. remember that the low end tables, those which historically hold $5-600/day, are the first to be "tightened up" or 86'd in favor of the slot department's use.
long run result should be that the "big" games will be maintained @ 3:2, but will earn dedicated surveillance.
that's the way i'd lay out the 21 games.
Big Cowboy
Well-Known Member
To Rob and Mr. Mayor
No one said that educating the ploppies would be easy. But if there is no change in the economics (in other words the masses playing bad table rules), then there will be no change for the better. I don't think that people on this board are vouching for keeping the good rules only for themselves. It should be obvious that advantage players are a small minority of gamblers. We are mere gadflies. But we could become more if we, yes, educate even only one person a week. One thing to look out for on the message boards, are possible casino employees who play up 6:5, just to try to make bad rules the norm of thinking amongst the ignorant.
No one said that educating the ploppies would be easy. But if there is no change in the economics (in other words the masses playing bad table rules), then there will be no change for the better. I don't think that people on this board are vouching for keeping the good rules only for themselves. It should be obvious that advantage players are a small minority of gamblers. We are mere gadflies. But we could become more if we, yes, educate even only one person a week. One thing to look out for on the message boards, are possible casino employees who play up 6:5, just to try to make bad rules the norm of thinking amongst the ignorant.
Freddie Kruger
New Member
"No even money."
What will really drive away the ploppies is when they find out they can no longer get "even money" when they have a blackjack and the dealer has an Ace showing. :> HA! HA!
What will really drive away the ploppies is when they find out they can no longer get "even money" when they have a blackjack and the dealer has an Ace showing. :> HA! HA!
Automatic Monkey
Banned
Re: educating the masses is a daunting task indeed...
And it helps them more than it helps us, come to think about it. Sure a 6:5 game sucks for us but a counter can still beat it in SD. The question is: why would you want to. But even a Basic Strategy player (I don't consider that a ploppy) has 4 times the disdvantage, and can no longer turn any profit with his comps.
And it helps them more than it helps us, come to think about it. Sure a 6:5 game sucks for us but a counter can still beat it in SD. The question is: why would you want to. But even a Basic Strategy player (I don't consider that a ploppy) has 4 times the disdvantage, and can no longer turn any profit with his comps.
Rob McGarvey
Well-Known Member
Re: To Rob and Mr. Mayor
All you can hope for is that they keep making stupid mistakes that cost the casino money. We can tell them that will happen, but the bean counters have to see the results, THEN sell the 6:5 table sign on eBay to recoup their losses...smile
All you can hope for is that they keep making stupid mistakes that cost the casino money. We can tell them that will happen, but the bean counters have to see the results, THEN sell the 6:5 table sign on eBay to recoup their losses...smile