I was backed off this morning from the El Cortez, the funny thing is that the pit boss told me that I "can not count cards anymore." As a floorman, my casino manager has stressed to me that when backing someone off, you must not say its because of counting because they can go to nevada gaming and take legal action. Anyone know my rights here?
My First Back Off
- Thread starter SonOfBeve
- Start date
LV Bear
Administrator
You have no rights
... you must not say its because of counting because they can go to Nevada Gaming and take legal action. Anyone know my rights here?
A casino is a private business that can refuse "service" to anyone it chooses, as long as it is not based on discrimination against legally protected classes, such as refusal based on race, gender, national origin, etc. In Nevada, skilled players are not a protected class. It is not a good idea for a casino employee to state a reason when backing off a patron simply because it can cause an argument and delay the backoff, which the casino usually wants to do quickly and quietly without other patrons knowing what is going on.
The El Cortez is particularly intolerant of any skilled play whatsoever, regardless of betting levels. It is kind of a training ground for new counters, and I'm sure some of the personnel there resent it. My first backoff, years ago, was there, too. I was backed off there several times thereafter, before I finally gave up on the place for good.
The Nevada Gaming Control Board is generally useless in protecting patron's rights, even in cases when there are rights to be protected. It is basically an arm of the casino industry. Forget about it.
... you must not say its because of counting because they can go to Nevada Gaming and take legal action. Anyone know my rights here?
A casino is a private business that can refuse "service" to anyone it chooses, as long as it is not based on discrimination against legally protected classes, such as refusal based on race, gender, national origin, etc. In Nevada, skilled players are not a protected class. It is not a good idea for a casino employee to state a reason when backing off a patron simply because it can cause an argument and delay the backoff, which the casino usually wants to do quickly and quietly without other patrons knowing what is going on.
The El Cortez is particularly intolerant of any skilled play whatsoever, regardless of betting levels. It is kind of a training ground for new counters, and I'm sure some of the personnel there resent it. My first backoff, years ago, was there, too. I was backed off there several times thereafter, before I finally gave up on the place for good.
The Nevada Gaming Control Board is generally useless in protecting patron's rights, even in cases when there are rights to be protected. It is basically an arm of the casino industry. Forget about it.
blueeyedsamurai
Member
confirmation
You have just confirmed to any Pit Critters from the El that you are a counter, you may want to go back and edit your post.
You have just confirmed to any Pit Critters from the El that you are a counter, you may want to go back and edit your post.
Details
My spread when I was caught was 2 units on 2 hands from the top of the deck and positive decks id move from two hands to one hand of 3 or 4 units. Before that, I was playing one hand at a table with 2 other players, spreading from 1 to 4 units, moving up one unit at a time. I bought in with $175, was down to $75 and then had a nice hour and finished with $225.
My spread when I was caught was 2 units on 2 hands from the top of the deck and positive decks id move from two hands to one hand of 3 or 4 units. Before that, I was playing one hand at a table with 2 other players, spreading from 1 to 4 units, moving up one unit at a time. I bought in with $175, was down to $75 and then had a nice hour and finished with $225.
phantom007
Well-Known Member
"Black Like Me".....
Showing my age... but in the early '70's, while in High School, I read a book entitled "Black Like Me", author I cannot recall. Basically, the setting was the mid-60's....the author, a white guy, basically made himself "Black" via taking large doses of Melatonin (ahead of his time), plus getting his hair "fro-ed" etc.
The basic premise of the book was all of the prejudice that he received during travel through the Southern States....separate restrooms, drinking fountains, threats, attacks by Rednecks, etc. From memory, I seem to recall that "he got laid by a black chick", so +EV beyond Royalties.
Anyhow, MY OWN PREJUDICES:
(1) Oriental with an accent...Oriental Bettor...will spread wildly based on most any criteria EXCEPT the TC! Dealer scratched his nose...BET MAX. PC checked his watch (to see how much longer he would have to put up with these F#ckers)...BET MIN.
(2) Oriental without an accent, age 50+...probably got rich via a chain of Chinese restaurants...PROBABLY used to have an accent...likely an "Oriental Bettor".
(3) Oriental without accent, age <50....likely a CC, and an EXCELLENT on at that. If you get distracted and lose TC, just bet what he/she does. I personally am still trying to get over the fact that for about the last 10 years, I really thought that "WONG" was oriental!
(4) Jewish Male...similar to #3...won't be betting big $$$ unless he has the advantage.
(5) Jewish Female...similar to #1...bet opposite.
(6) Black Female..."since when do they let employees play table games".
(7) Black Male...
-----A. Speaks "ebonics"...same as #1.
-----B. Speaks "english"...same as #3.
(8) White Male, age 50-ish with tweed coat and tan slacks...Expert CC!...move now, this table is under Surveliance!
(9) White Female, any age....shouldn't you be at the Nickle slots?
Anyhow, these are just a few of my BJ PREJUDICES, albeit I admit, few, if any have any basis in FACT.
BUT TO THE POINT OF THIS POST....Would an Expert CC who happens to be for example, Black, Female, and Jewish, have any grounds for action if/when barred for CC'ing???
phantom007.
Showing my age... but in the early '70's, while in High School, I read a book entitled "Black Like Me", author I cannot recall. Basically, the setting was the mid-60's....the author, a white guy, basically made himself "Black" via taking large doses of Melatonin (ahead of his time), plus getting his hair "fro-ed" etc.
The basic premise of the book was all of the prejudice that he received during travel through the Southern States....separate restrooms, drinking fountains, threats, attacks by Rednecks, etc. From memory, I seem to recall that "he got laid by a black chick", so +EV beyond Royalties.
Anyhow, MY OWN PREJUDICES:
(1) Oriental with an accent...Oriental Bettor...will spread wildly based on most any criteria EXCEPT the TC! Dealer scratched his nose...BET MAX. PC checked his watch (to see how much longer he would have to put up with these F#ckers)...BET MIN.
(2) Oriental without an accent, age 50+...probably got rich via a chain of Chinese restaurants...PROBABLY used to have an accent...likely an "Oriental Bettor".
(3) Oriental without accent, age <50....likely a CC, and an EXCELLENT on at that. If you get distracted and lose TC, just bet what he/she does. I personally am still trying to get over the fact that for about the last 10 years, I really thought that "WONG" was oriental!
(4) Jewish Male...similar to #3...won't be betting big $$$ unless he has the advantage.
(5) Jewish Female...similar to #1...bet opposite.
(6) Black Female..."since when do they let employees play table games".
(7) Black Male...
-----A. Speaks "ebonics"...same as #1.
-----B. Speaks "english"...same as #3.
(8) White Male, age 50-ish with tweed coat and tan slacks...Expert CC!...move now, this table is under Surveliance!
(9) White Female, any age....shouldn't you be at the Nickle slots?
Anyhow, these are just a few of my BJ PREJUDICES, albeit I admit, few, if any have any basis in FACT.
BUT TO THE POINT OF THIS POST....Would an Expert CC who happens to be for example, Black, Female, and Jewish, have any grounds for action if/when barred for CC'ing???
phantom007.
stainless steel rat
Well-Known Member
how to get backed off, part 1...
Some "lessons from the pits" learned by "yours truly"
1. Play too long. I found myself getting into "the BJ zone" (sorry Eliot) and almost getting into a trance. If you play long enough, someone will get interested, and before you know it they run a skills check with the eye. You might get backed off during the extended session, or more commonly the next time you play, particularly if you use a player's card so that they can ID you and attach a note for the next time they check your card.
2. Play too mechanically. Ramp the bet according to the count, drop it when the count drops, even though you just won two hands of $100. quadruple your bet after a loss because the count went up by 4. Etc. A blind deaf mute could figure out what you are doing.
3. Win. As you win you need to "rat-hole" when possible, that is remove a chip here and there (preferably a big denomination chip) to "hide" your EV from the dealer and pit. RFID is going to make this impossible, but for now not many pits use RFID chips. I've been backed off simply for winning, without even having a chance to spread my bets. I've been backed off for winning because it was pretty obvious I was winning. If you keep your chips neat, with different denominations in different stacks, all the better for the pit to keep up with your winning rate.
4. Never drink anything. I personally do not use alcohol products. But I do try to have a glass of tea or something close by, and get my wife to bring refills, so that it appears that I am not avoiding drinking, which is a signature of a serious counter.
5. Never talk. No joking. No bitching when the dealer pulls a 6-card 21 and you have two doubled hands on the table. No bitching when you double a 11 and get an A, because you know that hilo counts aces and 10s together and you know that you are going to get an A in high counts, on occasion, so it is expected and nothing to complain about.
6. Never toke. Excessive toking is just as bad as misplaying hands as you are losing EV, but a small toke here and there goes a long way toward avoiding that "counters never toke" profile.
7. Let everyone know when someone asks about a play that "the correct BS play is to split those 4's only against a 5 or 6. Make sure that the dealer and even more importantly, the pit, knows that you know basic strategy, that you have read several BJ books, and that you have BJ software that lets you sim hands to analyze the options. Particularly explain to others why they should split their 8's against a dealer's 10, because it is about limiting their losses, not winning that bad hand. Etc.
8. Make it clear you are a techno-phobe. That is you have computers everywhere, you practice BJ everywhere, in your car, on your PDA, when you are in the little boys room, but really play up your computer expertise.
9. Don't practice. Make sure that when you play, you have to focus intently on each card as it is played. Even better, move your lips as you count 3, 4, 3, 2, 3, 4, ...
10. If you win the last hand before a shuffle, always drop back to the min bet when the dealer shuffles, after all the RC/TC is now back to zero.
11. Make every obvious BS departure based on the count. If the TC is at +4, always split 10's against a 6. Never split 10's otherwise. The pit is too stupid to figure that out and it's a good play.
Once you have gotten good at the above, and you decide that you would like to play rather than getting kicked out of every casino you visit, you begin to learn the real ropes. Blending in. "hiding in plain sight" is often mentioned. But if you watch as you play, you can learn to "fly under the radar". The best bit of advice I ever got is to do just that. If I watch you play, I am pretty sure I can detect the fact that you are counting. I see this pretty often when I am playing and notice that someone at my table is also. I try to leave when I see that, because two stand out more than one. But the point is that if you don't attract attention, you will probably not be found out, until you start betting very big (black and beyond). But if you do something to attract attention, a replay of the tape by the eye folks will get you every time. So your job is to simply not be noticed....
Good luck. And note that +none+ of the above was intended to be insulting toward your play. Those are all things I did in my first year or two of counting, and which caused me to run afoul of a pit here and there until I realized what I was doing...
How you dress, how you look, how you act, how you talk, how you "blend in with the crowd" is the key. If you stand out, you'll eventually get noticed. That is the beginning of the end..
Some "lessons from the pits" learned by "yours truly"
1. Play too long. I found myself getting into "the BJ zone" (sorry Eliot) and almost getting into a trance. If you play long enough, someone will get interested, and before you know it they run a skills check with the eye. You might get backed off during the extended session, or more commonly the next time you play, particularly if you use a player's card so that they can ID you and attach a note for the next time they check your card.
2. Play too mechanically. Ramp the bet according to the count, drop it when the count drops, even though you just won two hands of $100. quadruple your bet after a loss because the count went up by 4. Etc. A blind deaf mute could figure out what you are doing.
3. Win. As you win you need to "rat-hole" when possible, that is remove a chip here and there (preferably a big denomination chip) to "hide" your EV from the dealer and pit. RFID is going to make this impossible, but for now not many pits use RFID chips. I've been backed off simply for winning, without even having a chance to spread my bets. I've been backed off for winning because it was pretty obvious I was winning. If you keep your chips neat, with different denominations in different stacks, all the better for the pit to keep up with your winning rate.
4. Never drink anything. I personally do not use alcohol products. But I do try to have a glass of tea or something close by, and get my wife to bring refills, so that it appears that I am not avoiding drinking, which is a signature of a serious counter.
5. Never talk. No joking. No bitching when the dealer pulls a 6-card 21 and you have two doubled hands on the table. No bitching when you double a 11 and get an A, because you know that hilo counts aces and 10s together and you know that you are going to get an A in high counts, on occasion, so it is expected and nothing to complain about.
6. Never toke. Excessive toking is just as bad as misplaying hands as you are losing EV, but a small toke here and there goes a long way toward avoiding that "counters never toke" profile.
7. Let everyone know when someone asks about a play that "the correct BS play is to split those 4's only against a 5 or 6. Make sure that the dealer and even more importantly, the pit, knows that you know basic strategy, that you have read several BJ books, and that you have BJ software that lets you sim hands to analyze the options. Particularly explain to others why they should split their 8's against a dealer's 10, because it is about limiting their losses, not winning that bad hand. Etc.
8. Make it clear you are a techno-phobe. That is you have computers everywhere, you practice BJ everywhere, in your car, on your PDA, when you are in the little boys room, but really play up your computer expertise.
9. Don't practice. Make sure that when you play, you have to focus intently on each card as it is played. Even better, move your lips as you count 3, 4, 3, 2, 3, 4, ...
10. If you win the last hand before a shuffle, always drop back to the min bet when the dealer shuffles, after all the RC/TC is now back to zero.
11. Make every obvious BS departure based on the count. If the TC is at +4, always split 10's against a 6. Never split 10's otherwise. The pit is too stupid to figure that out and it's a good play.
Once you have gotten good at the above, and you decide that you would like to play rather than getting kicked out of every casino you visit, you begin to learn the real ropes. Blending in. "hiding in plain sight" is often mentioned. But if you watch as you play, you can learn to "fly under the radar". The best bit of advice I ever got is to do just that. If I watch you play, I am pretty sure I can detect the fact that you are counting. I see this pretty often when I am playing and notice that someone at my table is also. I try to leave when I see that, because two stand out more than one. But the point is that if you don't attract attention, you will probably not be found out, until you start betting very big (black and beyond). But if you do something to attract attention, a replay of the tape by the eye folks will get you every time. So your job is to simply not be noticed....
Good luck. And note that +none+ of the above was intended to be insulting toward your play. Those are all things I did in my first year or two of counting, and which caused me to run afoul of a pit here and there until I realized what I was doing...
How you dress, how you look, how you act, how you talk, how you "blend in with the crowd" is the key. If you stand out, you'll eventually get noticed. That is the beginning of the end..
Virgin Counter
Member
EC = Easy to get tossed
A move from $10 to $30 on a slightly positive count will draw heat at this place. My feelings are the bosses are tired of getting picked on by counters and basically will toss just about anyone who even smells of doing a countdown. They count the discards, they shuffle on you, stare you down, and if you don't get the message they boot you. I think they take it personally, especially the brother in the shiny purple suit. Plus the bosses are stressed out with the clueless dealers paying off 23's and other crazy stuff.
A move from $10 to $30 on a slightly positive count will draw heat at this place. My feelings are the bosses are tired of getting picked on by counters and basically will toss just about anyone who even smells of doing a countdown. They count the discards, they shuffle on you, stare you down, and if you don't get the message they boot you. I think they take it personally, especially the brother in the shiny purple suit. Plus the bosses are stressed out with the clueless dealers paying off 23's and other crazy stuff.
Automatic Monkey
Banned
You are very funny Dr. Dirty!
So which one are you, a Jewish female or a black male?
So which one are you, a Jewish female or a black male?
LV Bear
Administrator
"Crossroader" *LINK*
You are a "crossroader". That's not a bad thing.
Does crossroader have a meaning other than that in the BJ21.com Glossary:
<u>Crossroader.</u> A colloquialism for a cheat, hustler, con man or scam artist.
?????
Maybe SonOfBeve is a "fence crosser"??
You are a "crossroader". That's not a bad thing.
Does crossroader have a meaning other than that in the BJ21.com Glossary:
<u>Crossroader.</u> A colloquialism for a cheat, hustler, con man or scam artist.
?????
Maybe SonOfBeve is a "fence crosser"??
How long did you play?
I had a 2 hour session there and won over $400 playing BJ and lost $100 practicing my dice control at the craps table. I used some cover along with my best ploppy/tourist drinking act.
I lasted almost that long before being asked to leave a particularly sweaty Coast property.
I had a 2 hour session there and won over $400 playing BJ and lost $100 practicing my dice control at the craps table. I used some cover along with my best ploppy/tourist drinking act.
I lasted almost that long before being asked to leave a particularly sweaty Coast property.
Not yet
I havent backed you off...yet. MUHAHA! I work at a casino downtown, one you are barred from actually. We have pictures and information about you with the label "Do not allow to play at any ####### property" You could always wear a disguise though. ask ZG about me if you want to know what casino I work for.
I havent backed you off...yet. MUHAHA! I work at a casino downtown, one you are barred from actually. We have pictures and information about you with the label "Do not allow to play at any ####### property" You could always wear a disguise though. ask ZG about me if you want to know what casino I work for.
zengrifter
Banned
THE EC like virtually any playable...
... casino CAN be played for hours on end (as Sonofbeve has witnessed), BUT it is not recommened for newbies. zg
... casino CAN be played for hours on end (as Sonofbeve has witnessed), BUT it is not recommened for newbies. zg
If I posted one
you know it would not be mine or would it?
Anyway, besides the stereotyping in the post we are talking about, I would say that the pit also stereotypes players. If you do not fit a counter stereotype your chance of longevity is greatly increased. It helps you with the pit but if someone decides upstairs should run a skill test on you, you still have problems. Also, if you use a card, lifetime win can either get you backedoff immediately or be a reason for a skill test. In my case short sessions should at worst keep them guessing if they are suspicious.
Victoria camera shy
you know it would not be mine or would it?
Anyway, besides the stereotyping in the post we are talking about, I would say that the pit also stereotypes players. If you do not fit a counter stereotype your chance of longevity is greatly increased. It helps you with the pit but if someone decides upstairs should run a skill test on you, you still have problems. Also, if you use a card, lifetime win can either get you backedoff immediately or be a reason for a skill test. In my case short sessions should at worst keep them guessing if they are suspicious.
Victoria camera shy