New Card Counter

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snorky

Well-Known Member
Hi All

I'm new here and I'm hoping to learn a bit, because I do have an ambition to card count. After my last trip to Reno, I'm on the verge of giving up. I find that SD and DD are too closely watched, while full shoe games aren't worth the variance or win rate when there is the option of poker. I've made a few posts on twoplustwo asking about cardcounting.

As for a quick background, I'm 21, just graduated from college and am unemployed. I use to card count for fun at my local California Indian casinos (H17 DAS RSA ~75% pen) before turning 21. I used a $5 to 2x $75 spread and got no heat what so ever. I got more into it recently after the ban of internet poker and took the time to learn more indexes. I started playing more SD and DD games, since those are rarely offered in Indian casinos w/o bad rules or bad penetrations. Internet poker was my bread and butter and I was able to support myself through college with it.

Checkout the posts I've made on twoplustwo about cardcounting if you guys are bored or curious. I learned a lot and hope to learn more. Reading through the posts, I can see how I've matured as a card counter and sadly my last experience killed my ambitions. Responses are heavily appreciated. Thanks!

This year (2011):

7/13 First blackjack ban rant: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/31/other-gambling-games/first-blackjack-ban-rant-1067228/

7/4 Pooling a blackjack bankroll Question: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/31/other-gambling-games/pooling-blackjack-bankroll-question-1062304/

6/21 double deck blackjack questions: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/31/other-gambling-games/double-deck-blackjack-questions-1056290/

6/11 what are some blackjack forums?: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/31/other-gambling-games/what-some-blackjack-forums-1051210/

6/7 cardcounting in CA Indian Casinos strict?: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/31/other-gambling-games/cardcounting-ca-indian-casinos-strict-1049249/

1/1 What is considered heat from blackjack?: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/31/other-gambling-games/what-considered-heat-blackjack-949577/

Last year (2010):
4/8 amateur card counter: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/31/other-gambling-games/amateur-card-counter-755204/
 
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kewljason

kewljason

Well-Known Member
Sonny said:
It's probably not too late. You might get a kick out of this:

Advice from a Reno Card Counter

-Sonny-
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OMG. Great read. Thanx Sonny and of course syph. I just love reading about the experiences of others. I am preparing for my first trip to northern Nevada next month, so it is timely for me as well. Going to hit both the north east and north west corners of the state. Hoping to make a little money of course, but also just want to experience a different type of atmosphere than I am familiar with. Actually, my biggest goal is just to escape some triple digit temps for a couple weeks. :)

Until I broke down and purchases a car 6 months ago, I didn't even realize there was a Nevada outside Clark County. :laugh:
 
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S

snorky

Well-Known Member
Nice read sonny.

I have many more questions such as:

- What exactly is a pit boss? Is anyone wearing a suit considered a pit boss? I asked one what their job was and she replied she's a pit clerk, not a pit boss, so that got me confused.
- Why do some pit bosses stare you down or have their shoulder facing your table sometimes for long period of times?
- Do some casinos even care for card counters? A lot of Indian casinos have high revenue and are abundant in ploppies, while incorporating very bad rules. I'm sure the pit won't care for much on a card counter spreading on red chips.
- I even had a conversation once with a pit boss at an Indian casino. He's mentioned he's been in the business almost all his life and is close to retiring. He was very honest and said he use to work in Reno and Vegas and that all of them were required to learn card counting. He says casinos for the most knows who card counts and won't care, b/c card counters get emotional and that'll wreck their edge. Is that true?
- This brings up another question if all pit bosses know how to count. The guy above says they were required to learn it.
- Do dealers notify the pit boss if they think they've spot a card counter?

Thanks!
 
S

SuperD

Member
I just browsed through your other posts on 2+2 and a couple quick comments. First from my experience Reno watches their games pretty close because they have so much single deck and SD is pretty easy to beat. I think you said you were spreading $10 to $100 on SD. You may want to cut that back a little for SD especially in Reno. Maybe $25 to $100 or $10 to $40 or $50. Also keep your sessions shorter so they don't have so much time to sit there and observe your play.

The place that told you can no longer play there, just wait a while and they will forget you. You can play there again as long as they don't remember you and haven't been officially trespassed. If you do get caught again and they realize they have told you before at that point you may get an official trespass, which just means that if you go back after that they can have you arrested.

As for your trip to Vegas, you were on the double deck you said you were spreading from $50 to $500. If you are betting smaller amounts you can probably get away with spreading 1-10 on DD, but if you played much longer you probably would have got some heat, but if you can get away with 1-10 then that is a pretty good spread for DD.

If you play much SD or DD you will see the up and down swings come much faster so just be prepared.
 
kewljason

kewljason

Well-Known Member
SuperD said:
As for your trip to Vegas, you were on the double deck you said you were spreading from $50 to $500. If you are betting smaller amounts you can probably get away with spreading 1-10 on DD, but if you played much longer you probably would have got some heat, but if you can get away with 1-10 then that is a pretty good spread for DD.

.
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Wow. I didn't read the OP's posts yet, but I want comment on this spread in regards to Vegas. First of all you don't want to have a top wager of $500 ever! $500 is a threshold that draws additional heat in all games. If you are going to crack the $500 barrier, make it worth your while and go significantly above, $700, $800. (as long as you stay below the next threshold level of $1000) Other wise top out at $400 or $450. But geez even $50 - $400 or $450 will draw attention at single/doubledeck in vegas. Better be prepared to play short sessions.
 
S

SuperD

Member
snorky said:
Nice read sonny.

I have many more questions such as:

- What exactly is a pit boss? Is anyone wearing a suit considered a pit boss? I asked one what their job was and she replied she's a pit clerk, not a pit boss, so that got me confused.
- Why do some pit bosses stare you down or have their shoulder facing your table sometimes for long period of times?
- Do some casinos even care for card counters? A lot of Indian casinos have high revenue and are abundant in ploppies, while incorporating very bad rules. I'm sure the pit won't care for much on a card counter spreading on red chips.
- I even had a conversation once with a pit boss at an Indian casino. He's mentioned he's been in the business almost all his life and is close to retiring. He was very honest and said he use to work in Reno and Vegas and that all of them were required to learn card counting. He says casinos for the most knows who card counts and won't care, b/c card counters get emotional and that'll wreck their edge. Is that true?
- This brings up another question if all pit bosses know how to count. The guy above says they were required to learn it.
- Do dealers notify the pit boss if they think they've spot a card counter?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Pit Boss are the ones watching the tables making sure dealers are doing their jobs and watching for cheaters among other tasks. The pit clerk assists in the pit by helping with comps, rating players, markers etc.

Sometimes the pit boss will be staring at your table and has nothing to do with you. They could be watching the dealer to make sure they aren't making mistakes, they could be looking at the rack to see if they are missing any chips or need a fill or they may be watching you. The more you play the easier it will be to tell if they are focused on you or just doing their job.

Each casino has a different tolerance level for counters and you will be able to tell how they react with your bets to see how far you can push them. Some pit bosses may even know that you count but either don't care if you don't take too much.

Some places do make their floor learn how to count, but I would estimate only about half the pit bosses know how to count, and they generally just know the basics. If they suspect something then the can call in their boss to take a closer look or call the eye and have them observe.

Dealers may notify the pit boss of a counter, but most do not know how to count and if they do, most of them just care that they are getting tips so you usually don't have to worry about the dealers. Although I would say that the dealers in Reno are definitely more aware of counters at their table since they are dealing more in SD.
 
S

SuperD

Member
Snorky,

As far as larger shops in Vegas, $500 bets are not uncommon and not considered big action for them, but that doesn't mean they are going to completely ignore your play.

I think your cover plays are okay. You will definitely need to use cover plays at times. I try not to do too many cover plays on larger bets.

In Reno were you on a shoe or DD or SD with the 10 to 2 x 75. If it was a pitch game I'm surprised you got to play more than 15 minutes. If it was a pitch that is way too much spread.

I don't know if I would spread 1-40 on a shoe. 1-20 is a pretty good spread. If you want to increase your rate you will probably just need to increase your bet size, but make sure you have enough of a bankroll to support a larger bet.
 
S

snorky

Well-Known Member
I used the same spread in both games. In heads up play and SD games, I was more inclined to just making one bet of $100 instead of 2x $75. Whenever I felt the shuffle coming up, I'd place two bets. I think I got away with this wide of a spread because I only do it when the casino personnel is not watching. When they are watching, I'd flat bet or make bad plays. However I'm not sure if having my action not welcomed by two out of six casinos within 4 days of play is good or bad. All these games were pitch games and I hop tables or casinos whenever two or more people sit down. I've probably committed 40 or so hours of play in blackjack between Siena, Cal Neva, Harrah's, Eldorado, Silver Legacy, and Circus Circus.

And yeah, thinking about it, a 1-40 spread is unnecessary. It's probably better just to raise my minimum bet. I don't think I save that much money anyways by doing so.
 
B

BJgenius007

Well-Known Member
snorky said:
- I even had a conversation once with a pit boss at an Indian casino. He's mentioned he's been in the business almost all his life and is close to retiring. He was very honest and said he use to work in Reno and Vegas and that all of them were required to learn card counting. He says casinos for the most knows who card counts and won't care, b/c card counters get emotional and that'll wreck their edge. Is that true?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
This is what and why I always said that casino don't ban card counters. They might ban the 1% professional card counters who can take emotion out of the equation and spread $500 to $10,000 a hand. For people betting red and green chips in smaller casinos and black chips in large casinos, they really don't care. Card counter may lose more because of the emotional wreck.
 
kewljason

kewljason

Well-Known Member
SuperD said:
As far as larger shops in Vegas, $500 bets are not uncommon and not considered big action for them, but that doesn't mean they are going to completely ignore your play.
Click to expand...
No one said $500 was uncommon or that it was big action. However, it is one of several levels in which the casino's interest level increases. A spread of green ($25 or $50) to $500 draws considerably more attention than if you stay just under this threshold of say $400 or $450.
 
S

SuperD

Member
BJgenius007 said:
This is what and why I always said that casino don't ban card counters. They might ban the 1% professional card counters who can take emotion out of the equation and spread $500 to $10,000 a hand. For people betting red and green chips in smaller casinos and black chips in large casinos, they really don't care. Card counter may lose more because of the emotional wreck.
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Or they don't have a large enough bankroll to sustain the variance and will eventually go broke. Although some stores will ban any counter no matter skill level or bankroll.
 
Gamblor

Gamblor

Well-Known Member
SuperD said:
Or they don't have a large enough bankroll to sustain the variance and will eventually go broke. Although some stores will ban any counter no matter skill level or bankroll.
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Yes, some casinos are very sweaty. Saw a red chip layer get some heat at a known sweat shop, and this player was only spreading x10 and playing heavy cover (pfft I had my spread up to x17+). The player was exhibiting other signs of being a counter though.

As far as red chip players, they are "tolerated". Not in the sense that casinos don't care and would welcome them with open arms, but the casinos have limited resources, and cannot possibly bother to track down every low level counter. Certain things will trigger interest in you. This should be kept in mind of when, where and how to play.
 
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