New chapter for Rubin Comp City book ?

Mr. T

Well-Known Member
In this computer age perhaps a new chapter is needed.
The Wynn LAS is using the RFID chip. To max out on your Comp you should pool the buying of your chips through one person. Their computer will recognise the bets placed by anybody using this chips to that person. I dont know what the target betting requirement is in Wynn LAS but I hear for instance next door in the Venetion you will get a free room if you bet at the $25 table for 4 hours. Every casino has some betting target where if you achieve that you will get bonus or reward of some kind.
So say 4 of you go to Wynn LAS then use only one players card to buy all your chips whether it is $500, $1000 or $5000. In their computerised system the Comps would probably be based on the turnover of your chips. Dont be afraid of the $25 or $50 minimum bet. You can break up your chip into smaller denominations like $5 or $10 and their computer will still know that these smaller chips still belong to that person. If the table minimum is to big for you then bet together to make up the minimum bet. What you cannot do is for some in your party to bet at another table simultaneously. The computer will be able to raise a red flag and deny you the Comp. So find out what the turnover requirement of the chips are, hit the target and get your free room in the Wynn LAS.
 
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shadroch

Well-Known Member
I do hope your advice on the gambling junkets in Asia is more accurate than this,because this is nonsense.
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
While I have no idea of how RFID chips are used in practice, this is unlikely.

Virtually all play evaluation still works by evaluating the player that the pit sees there at the table, and the chips they are playing, regardless of who bought the chips. It is unlikely that RFID chips would upset this paradigm.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
There is a very easy way to beat the RFID system,but as I have not seen it discussed on public forums,I won't be the first to do so.
What is interesting is that casinos evidently set a dollar total and anyone carrying chips over that amount sets off a sensor and allows survaliance to follow that person everywhere they go_Or so it is on the Vegas tv show anyways.
 

ihate17

Well-Known Member
How another system works

I do not know how Wynn's system works but MrT's post does not quite ring right.

I do know how another RFID system works. Here the computer really does not know that these particular chips are yours until they are bet. You give a players card and the computer has you in seat one. You bet and before the dealer deals he hits this button in the table, near the shoe. When he hits that button, the computer has now given you credit for making that bet. Those chips do not have your name on them.
They track your bet, can track your spread but need additional software or a person to see if your spread and the count correlate.

For comps their computer will show your average bet and give them a total for the action you provided.
For the casino it probably reduces total comps since you get no credit for breaks. It also eliminates the generous or not generous pit from part of the comp formula. It also provides security against counterfeit chips and I would think would recognize a capped bet.

ihate17
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
In the first place,you buy your chips at the table you are playing at.Sitting at a $25 table,buying $5,000 in chips and handing $3,000 to your partners would set off more bells and whistles than winning a minor jackpot on a two dollar slot machine.
 

zengrifter

Banned
RFID CAN count when combined with magnetic-strip embedded playing cards. The system ALREADY exists.

One way to trick the system, for betting NOT for comp, is to use a powerful electro-magnet or microwave device, in your room, to neutralize some of the RFIDs and render them invisible to the system. Then you could use mostly neutralized chips during +counts. zg
Here's an RFID-ZAPPER made from a cheap camera -

WEAPONS: The RFID zapper

Radio frequency IDs (RFIDs), small electronic chips that share information when scanned, are rapidly becoming an essential part of global supply management. In order to correctly route and track items from inception to purchase, these chips are attached to packaging and increasingly the products themselves.

The intentional disabling of these chips can cause supply chain disruption. The best method is to HERF (high energy radio frequency, usually microwaves) the chips using a small transmitter (read about high power home made microwave weapons for herfing). The German branch (privacy activists) of the global guerrilla innovation network has developed a simple solution (Archive copy) that converts a standard film camera into a short range RFID zapper.

...more - http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2006/01/weapons_the_rfi.htmlhttp://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2006/01/weapons_the_rfi.html
 

Mr. T

Well-Known Member
Let me post a quote from a megazine article to enlighten you folks.


"Shuffle Master, a gaming supply company headquartered, in Las Vegas, Nevada, recently purchased two RFID-related patents for $12.5 million. [...]

The first patent is for RFID-enabled gaming chips. A casino could track the chip from the time it was first played to the time it is cashed in. The second patent is for the gaming table tracking system that monitors and records all gaming chip transactions in a casino. Both patents were originally filed in 1995. [...]

So how do RFID-enabled chips and tables work?

"Say I sit down at a black jack table and I have a player's card. I place it and a $100 bill on the table. My card is swiped which places me at that table," explained Mr. Meyer. (A player's card is another way for casinos to track frequent gamblers. They earn points on the card for free meals, or other rewards.)

Without RFID, "as I play over time, the only way the casino can estimate the kind of player I am, is by using pit boss estimates. That's a pretty rough estimate. That's where table tracking comes in. Every chip is associated with me and is tracked using a reader. Exactly what I'm betting and losing or winning is tracked automatically. Without tracking, they (casino) don't know what I'm betting." In other words, the reasoning behind RFID utilization is that the casino will know what every player is doing at every table.

"Say you move away from one table with $500 in chips. You now go to cash in those chips. Those RFID chips can be read at the cage and associated with you. In your moment of generosity, you give a cocktail waitress a $25 chip. When she cashes it in, we know how generous a tipper you are."


You will note that it says "Every chip is associated with me " i.e. the person who purchased the chip.
 
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shadroch

Well-Known Member
Then the trick is to get change for cocktail waitresses. When they end up with all your black chips,you'll appear to be a very big tipper.
Now explain how that helps you ?
 

ihate17

Well-Known Member
Nothing these firms do is designed to help you

shadroch said:
Then the trick is to get change for cocktail waitresses. When they end up with all your black chips,you'll appear to be a very big tipper.
Now explain how that helps you ?
All of these RFID and other table game systems like Mindplay are designed to only add to the casino bottom line. The shufflemaster system will cut comps for most players because at most tables the game is played slower than the pit would have estimated and take a break and you get no credit for any bets.
Perhaps more important to the casinos and how the sales pitch is made to them, is the cutting of jobs. Doing a bigger percentage of the pits job does not free up the pit to do other things (RFID systems can even notify when a fill is needed), you know important stuff like emptying ashtrays, it tells the casino that they need fewer pits. Same thing with Mindplay, the patent application listed the two biggest benifits as being a reduction in pit and eye employees and a accurate comp rate (means lower amount of comps). So cut their pay, retirement, sick days etc etc and as a side bonus cut comps and catch counterfeit chips.

For the player, you get a negative, less comps.
For the employee, you may lose your job and even if you do not, your job has less value to the casino now.
For the casino $$$$$$$$$, they think!

ihate17
 

fredperson

Active Member
RFID chips...

Lets get real...

There is no way chips can be associated with a particular player.
The imbedded RFID chip simply identifies the denomination of the chip.
When a player sits down at a table, he is logged into a seat based on his player card
The amont of his bets,regardless of where the chips came from, are "read" by little RFID readers and recorded to the players account. This replaces the in-exact grading by the pit people.
If a player moves to another seat,or bets in two spots, the dealer reflects this on a little touch screen.
So the whole point of this is a more exact player rating system.
The cost....more work for the dealer...and equipment which has not yet been perfected and so far, seems to have reliability problems.
 

Mr. T

Well-Known Member
Now, I am making headway with you folks.

shadroch said:
Then the trick is to get change for cocktail waitresses. When they end up with all your black chips,you'll appear to be a very big tipper.
Now explain how that helps you ?

Shadroch, it doesn't help you.
It helps the casino alot by giving 100% accurate Comps to the player instead of the rough estimate that the pit boss give to the player and cut out the cat and mouse game between the player and the pit boss. Cut out a major part of the pit boss job. Increased productivity.
Just understand the awesome power of the new technology and the power of the computers nowadays to track every single chip to its owner and every play that is made on that chip.
You miss my point . I am talking about the loophole in the system and how you can take advantage of it. Rubin's book should have more substance in it instead of just having 100 or more ways to play this cat and mouse game.
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
fredperson said:
There is no way chips can be associated with a particular player.The imbedded RFID chip simply identifies the denomination of the chip.
I don't know but I thought it would not only identify that chips denomination but also know that it was that chip of all the $5 chips in the house.

Some chips have passive tags with no power. Others can broadcast up to 1500 feet or so I think.

I think they are used in US passports storing the printed information and a picture of you.

I think that's how EZ pass on turnpikes work along with those car keys that open your car while the key is still in your pocket.

And how do you think those poker shows on TV know the cards dealt to every player? I think the cards have RFID chips in them.

Now that last has real possibilities!
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
Mr. T said:
Shadroch, it doesn't help you.
It helps the casino alot by giving 100% accurate Comps to the player instead of the rough estimate that the pit boss give to the player and cut out the cat and mouse game between the player and the pit boss. Cut out a major part of the pit boss job. Increased productivity.
Just understand the awesome power of the new technology and the power of the computers nowadays to track every single chip to its owner and every play that is made on that chip.
You miss my point . I am talking about the loophole in the system and how you can take advantage of it. Rubin's book should have more substance in it instead of just having 100 or more ways to play this cat and mouse game.

Except it took about ten minutes for players to figure out how to trick the readers into thinking they were betting much more,thereby getting comps they never would have from the pit.
 
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