New Player - basic question

[WotaWaster]

I am a full time poker player so understand gambling theory but I have just recently began to develop an interest in blackjack, so need some help!

I have decided to try to apply the system set out in Knock-Out Blackjack (Vancura and Fuchs) which seems to be both simple and effective. Is this a good beginners system? Is the generic basic strategy chart in here correct?

I am practicing on Casino Verite simulator. Again - is this a good program? Any issues?

As it stands I am good at counting and have a reasonable grip of basic strategy but I haven't yet attempted to integrate the 2.

My biggest problem is this:

In KO blackjack it recommends that a pair of 8s should always be split.
On CV simulator it calls this up as an error. It seems to me splitting 8-8 against an Ace/10 would be a bad play. What is correct strategy for 8's against different upcards? I am concerned that 1 of these sources must be incorrect. Unless it is count dependent?

 

[EasyRhino]

Ooh, poker's too hard for me.

I'm a newbie counter myself, and I'm a big fan of KO. It's a "legitimate" counting system, although not as powerful as the more complex ones.

CV is very popular. For some reason, the display turns me off personally, and I prefer to practice with real cards.

Personally, I like to generate the basic strategy from the engine here for whatever casino I'll be playing at, the KO book seems to "round" strategy some for different decks, and different rules (double after split, etc).

As for the discrepancy, maybe CV got its rules set to a weird option? For instance, not splitting 8's vs A/T would be the case in a no-hole-card game, I think.

 

[WotaWaster]

Ok,

I play a game where all players cards are exposed and the dealer draws only 1initial card and then takes further cards as his turn comes round - is that what you mean by no-hole cards?

How does that affect strategy, surely a random card is a random card, wherever it is hidden alongside dealers card or in the deck?

 

[EasyRhino]

The important thing is the handling of a dealer blackjack.

With a hole, and dealer "peeking" for blackjack, if a dealer has a 21, he immediately collects the other players' bets. There is no opportunity for drawing cards, splitting, or doubling. This is the way it's done pretty much everywhere in the US.

In a no-peek (no hole card) game, the dealer either doesn't draw a hole card until everyone has made their play, or draws one but doesn't look at it. This means that a player may have a chance to split or double, and then still lose to the dealer 21 immediately. Which kind of sucks.

That can affect your strategy. The basic strategy engine here has an option for it.

It's the checking for blackjack that's important. Leaving a card face down is no big deal.

 

[WotaWaster]

Ok that makes sense.

CV also makes me stand on 16 vs a dealer 10. Is this related in some way to the game being a no-hole card game?

 

[supercoolmancool]

Ok that makes sense.

CV also makes me stand on 16 vs a dealer 10. Is this related in some way to the game being a no-hole card game?

Well for KO I think the index for standing on 16 v 10 is -1. If you look on page 164 or something. But either way it is count dependent so it wont always be the same play.

 

[Mikeaber]

Well for KO I think the index for standing on 16 v 10 is -1. If you look on page 164 or something. But either way it is count dependent so it wont always be the same play.

Depends on the number of decks Supercoolmancool.....With preferred strategy in a 6-deck game, you stand on 16 against a 10 if you have more than -5. If you are playing full strategy, I think you stand at -8 or greater. It's a stand at -6 in Double deck.

I think that the authors of KO designed the Generic Strategy to be one that if used correctly, would be less complex so that the beginning counter could concentrate more on the real money maker which is the bet ramping and insurance gains. The differences in Generic Basic Strategy and the full Basic strategy the engines generate are minor.

As for splitting 8's, Most any strategy you pull up will have you split 8's against anything just as most will have you split Aces against anything.

 

[tedloc]

Split the 8's

My biggest problem is this:

In KO blackjack it recommends that a pair of 8s should always be split.
On CV simulator it calls this up as an error. It seems to me splitting 8-8 against an Ace/10 would be a bad play. What is correct strategy for 8's against different upcards? I am concerned that 1 of these sources must be incorrect. Unless it is count dependent?[/QUOTE]

The reason to split the 8's, even vs. A/10, is not because you have a better chance to win but you will lose less by playing two seperate hands of 8 vs A/10. Think of it this way. Would you rather play 16 vs A/10 or play an 8 vs 10/A. You are still going to come out a loser when you split but will lose less.

 

[ihate17]

Different games, different strategy

My biggest problem is this:

In KO blackjack it recommends that a pair of 8s should always be split.
On CV simulator it calls this up as an error. It seems to me splitting 8-8 against an Ace/10 would be a bad play. What is correct strategy for 8's against different upcards? I am concerned that 1 of these sources must be incorrect. Unless it is count dependent?[/QUOTE]

The reason to split the 8's, even vs. A/10, is not because you have a better chance to win but you will lose less by playing two seperate hands of 8 vs A/10. Think of it this way. Would you rather play 16 vs A/10 or play an 8 vs 10/A. You are still going to come out a loser when you split but will lose less.

Woto Waster is playing the European No Hole Card game, which requires a different strategy than the game you are used to in the U.S.
Where he plays the dealer takes no hole card till after each player has completed their hands. Furthermore, and most importantly for strategy, if the dealer lands up having blackjack he will also take your double and split bets. The result is that the strategy for splitting or doubling against a dealer Ace or ten is quite different. Just think about splitting your 8's in this game, getting a double on one of them and then the dealer flips a blackjack! Better to not split those 8's in this game.

ihate17

 

[WotaWaster]

Thanks for your help.

Does this mean that you should vary your bets according to the count in a different way than that set out in KO Blackjack when playing the Euro game?

Is there any good books/web sites made specifically for this type of game?

 

[ihate17]

Ramp is the same

Thanks for your help.

Does this mean that you should vary your bets according to the count in a different way than that set out in KO Blackjack when playing the Euro game?

Is there any good books/web sites made specifically for this type of game?

Your bet ramp remains the same but your playing strategy is different. I do not know if KO covers this. I know you can find ENHC strategy indices in Sanford Wong's "Professional Blackjack", perhaps with a little work you can convert them over to KO.

ihate17

 

[ortango]

My biggest problem is this:

In KO blackjack it recommends that a pair of 8s should always be split.
On CV simulator it calls this up as an error. It seems to me splitting 8-8 against an Ace/10 would be a bad play. What is correct strategy for 8's against different upcards? I am concerned that 1 of these sources must be incorrect. Unless it is count dependent?[/QUOTE]

The reason to split the 8's, even vs. A/10, is not because you have a better chance to win but you will lose less by playing two seperate hands of 8 vs A/10. Think of it this way. Would you rather play 16 vs A/10 or play an 8 vs 10/A. You are still going to come out a loser when you split but will lose less.

You lose less money splitting the eights. If you played it as a 16 100 times with 100 dollars, you expectation is to have 44 dollars left. If you split them 100 times with 200 dollars, your expectation is to have 48 dollars left. Even if you have late surrender it is preferable to split, but the margin is small. You should surrender the 8,8 at +1 TC... this is for HiLo.

 

[Knox]

I believe surrender (if offered) is the correct play for 8s v Ace in a six-deck game. That's with H17 and DAS