NewsFlash!

[Tarzan]

I had the opportunity to hang out with Flash this week and talk about things, trade notes, all that. The primary topic that I wanted to hear what he had to say was about "choking". I could only imagine beforehand what he would have to say about this because Flash is a hardcore by the math kind of guy... "Dealer from hell? Stop your whining and shut up and bend over and take it like a man, damnit!" hahaha

Anyway, he spits it out there point blank and pulls no punches, so it's always interesting to get his perspective. I questioned doing something that is costly to your long run... "choking". Having a trip bankroll that is halved out and you are a little shell-shocked and demoralized from it, you have lost HUGE bets in good counts and things finally swing around again that you need to have 7-8x base bet out there but you are so demoralized from being down 125 units and eyeing up your dwindled chip stack that you have bets of about half that out there, finally getting that beautiful run that you would expect in this sort of count but since you are a chickensh*t dumbass, you only have about half the money out there that you SHOULD have out there.

The obvious answer is to increase your trip bankroll but hindsight is always more accurate than foresight. I know I should have gone for it and not worried about busting out a trip bankroll but I "choked" and it made the difference of making just a little instead of a whole lot in the short term but makes a big difference in the longrun should this happen with any frequency at all.

When a trip bankroll is a small fraction of your total bank, you shouldn't worry about busting out but I did and I "choked". I wanted to hear his take on the psychological aspects of it and of his experiences with such things as he has been down many of the same roads as me. Besides wanting to hear what he had to say about some stuff like that, it was also nice to see and hang out with the crazy old f*ck, as always!

 

[Bojack1]

I had the opportunity to hang out with Flash this week and talk about things, trade notes, all that. The primary topic that I wanted to hear what he had to say was about "choking". I could only imagine beforehand what he would have to say about this because Flash is a hardcore by the math kind of guy... "Dealer from hell? Stop your whining and shut up and bend over and take it like a man, damnit!" hahaha

Anyway, he spits it out there point blank and pulls no punches, so it's always interesting to get his perspective. I questioned doing something that is costly to your long run... "choking". Having a trip bankroll that is halved out and you are a little shell-shocked and demoralized from it, you have lost HUGE bets in good counts and things finally swing around again that you need to have 7-8x base bet out there but you are so demoralized from being down 125 units and eyeing up your dwindled chip stack that you have bets of about half that out there, finally getting that beautiful run that you would expect in this sort of count but since you are a chickensh*t dumbass, you only have about half the money out there that you SHOULD have out there.

The obvious answer is to increase your trip bankroll but hindsight is always more accurate than foresight. I know I should have gone for it and not worried about busting out a trip bankroll but I "choked" and it made the difference of making just a little instead of a whole lot in the short term but makes a big difference in the longrun should this happen with any frequency at all.

When a trip bankroll is a small fraction of your total bank, you shouldn't worry about busting out but I did and I "choked". I wanted to hear his take on the psychological aspects of it and of his experiences with such things as he has been down many of the same roads as me. Besides wanting to hear what he had to say about some stuff like that, it was also nice to see and hang out with the crazy old f*ck, as always!

I must say I am surprised that a player with so many years of experience still has such thoughts. Just through sheer repetition of events I would think that "choking" as you put it would never be an issue at this stage. I have seen it before with new players as I have brought them along, but do not, and will not accept it in those that are ready for real casino play. I have seen some major beatdowns to "trip" bankrolls before, but if you don't know it can be part of the game now, I'm not sure you ever will. I am no robot, I don't like losing money, but I am a realist in what I signed up for when I chose to play this game.

For those that lose their nerve I can only say either you get it or you don't. Maybe you might lack confidence in your approach to the game, or are just playing with money you can't afford to lose, which leads to indecision in times where it is critical not to blow it. There have been times in the past where my team will travel without me. On a few occasions I have gotten the call that they were getting destroyed and funds were low. My first question always was, is everybodys head on straight? After getting the answer yes everytime, which I expected, I would without hesitation let the trip bankroll be replenished and let them play on. I would not give it a thought because I know how they were trained, and that how you lose is just as important in how you win. If you are experienced enough, and skilled enough, no need to do an endzone dance for a win, or a crying fit over a loss. Act like you've been there before. You will always have ups and downs in the results of play, its when you let go of the emotion that rides the same roller coaster than you become dangerous. Then you stop beeing just another fringe, or never be counter, and finally get it. I believe its the nuances such as these that separate what I consider money players from the rest. In my book you don't need to be massively bankrolled to be money, you need to be able to handle the task at hand and be cool and professional. Its not for everyone, and thats okay and understandable. Sadly to say though, very few will ever admit to it and be honest with themselves. As a famous actor once said, "a man's got to know his limitations."

 

[creeping panther]

Pom

I must say I am surprised that a player with so many years of experience still has such thoughts. Just through sheer repetition of events I would think that "choking" as you put it would never be an issue at this stage. I have seen it before with new players as I have brought them along, but do not, and will not accept it in those that are ready for real casino play. I have seen some major beatdowns to "trip" bankrolls before, but if you don't know it can be part of the game now, I'm not sure you ever will. I am no robot, I don't like losing money, but I am a realist in what I signed up for when I chose to play this game.

For those that lose their nerve I can only say either you get it or you don't. Maybe you might lack confidence in your approach to the game, or are just playing with money you can't afford to lose, which leads to indecision in times where it is critical not to blow it. There have been times in the past where my team will travel without me. On a few occasions I have gotten the call that they were getting destroyed and funds were low. My first question always was, is everybodys head on straight? After getting the answer yes everytime, which I expected, I would without hesitation let the trip bankroll be replenished and let them play on. I would not give it a thought because I know how they were trained, and that how you lose is just as important in how you win. If you are experienced enough, and skilled enough, no need to do an endzone dance for a win, or a crying fit over a loss. Act like you've been there before. You will always have ups and downs in the results of play, its when you let go of the emotion that rides the same roller coaster than you become dangerous. Then you stop beeing just another fringe, or never be counter, and finally get it. I believe its the nuances such as these that separate what I consider money players from the rest. In my book you don't need to be massively bankrolled to be money, you need to be able to handle the task at hand and be cool and professional. Its not for everyone, and thats okay and understandable. Sadly to say though, very few will ever admit to it and be honest with themselves. As a famous actor once said, "a man's got to know his limitations."

I nominate this for Post Of The Month:1st:

Ken, break out the $100!

Thanks Bojack for your great insight, we sure can use it

CP

 

[OhioTR]

Needed This

Thanks guys,

I needed these posts.

 

[Tarzan]

Limitations

That's the thing... I have few or no limitations! So why did I "choke" even a LITTLE? It cost me money to scale back like that. I walked away from that particular playing session "victorious", if you want to call it that... tired and weatherbeaten but with about 30 units less than what I SHOULD have walked away with due to somewhat scaled back betting at a few points in critical counts until my chip stacks built back up.

The easy answer is to increase trip bankroll or to not worry about busting out a trip bankroll, simple as that. You are right--- How does a player such as me do such a thing? It's happened before, no big deal, nothing new and no huge impact on the big picture and the longrun so why? The answer is simple. Busting out a trip bankroll hurts my FEELINGS and my EGO but has little or no effect on my financial well being! I have become so accustomed to carrying an approximate 250 units and that being quite sufficient and I am not used to losing 120-130 units in a given playing session. It's an infrequent occurrence; It's a matter of being able to bring a smaller trip bankroll since I live practically right down the street but this becomes an issue if it affects my betting, which under any ordinary circumstances it wouldn't. Carrying less cash is less to worry about but if it has an effect on proper betting at any point it is detrimental to the longrun, even if it is an isolated instance.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Self Flaggelation or Much Ado About Nothing

If you use some form of resizing bet strategy you are suppose to lower bets on losses.

There is nothing wrong with lowering bets in order to finish a trip vs premature trip ruin.

To much talk about trip ruin bankrolls, the cost of the premature trip ruin is so costly that one needs to bring a very large portion of bank to insure against it.

If you play mostly positive expectation hands betting less then the proper amount is not as harmful as if you play a lot of negative hands and then underbet the few positive expectation hands.

If you are playing the same dealer or shoe and getting killed this could be an indication of cheating and if you lower bets properly you could save yourself some money.

If you play a lot then over time this will be a small part of your play, probably many of your bets are a little off here and there anyway for various reasons.

If you resize your bank on wins and losses and you don't bet very big when it is called for then yes:joker::whip:
This is costly

So have a cup of man up
and get back to it:joker::whip:

 

[FLASH1296]

A disquisition on Spilt Milk and inconsequential sums

I had the opportunity to hang out with Flash this week and talk about things, trade notes, all that. The primary topic that I wanted to hear what he had to say was about "choking". I could only imagine beforehand what he would have to say about this because Flash is a hardcore by the math kind of guy... "Dealer from hell? Stop your whining and shut up and bend over and take it like a man, damnit!" hahaha

A few days ago, we hung out as we frequently do. I was on my way home. and was hammered on almost a ½ liter of "Grey Goose", but as is my style, I got down and dirty with Tarzan's 'issue of the day'

The only problem is that Tarzan, the treetop-swinging falsetto-yodeling erstwhile ape man of Atlantic City is way too hard on himself. Like some of us, he can be harshly perfectionistic when considering his own short-term performance. Tarzan is a Pro through and through; but when he obsesses about a few rounds of sub-par bet-sizing, he loses sight of the rather modest difference in expectation that he created.

So … as an example, if he was betting $150 when he should have been betting twice as much [for 4 consecutive rounds], he probably had an expectation of winning > 1.5% or $18 — instead of the $9 in expectation that the lesser wagers created. It was probably worth a hell of a lot more than $9 to have the pit see you NOT accelerate your bets at that time.

Gee Whiz Sparky ! I know that he left a few redbirds for the dealer before departing and $9 is just as meaningless as can be at his level of betting.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Agree With Flash Annnnnnd

It shows an insight into human nature, Tarazan is upset over the money he did not win. Possibly many in his circumstance if they had underbet and lost would have thought it good and not beaten themselves up over lost opportunity.:joker::whip:

 

[Bojack1]

It shows an insight into human nature, Tarazan is upset over the money he did not win. Possibly many in his circumstance if they had underbet and lost would have thought it good and not beaten themselves up over lost opportunity.:joker::whip:

I disagree. It shows how easy it is to take the path of least resistance. And how easy it is to complain about it, and then do it again. I don't care if the penalty for being wrong costs 2 cents or 2,000 dollars, bad habits breed weak play. Especially if you play solo and don't have the benefit of teamates or other skilled players to check you out. Beating yourself up about a mistake is a worthless emotion. Recognizing it and fixing it is the hard, but correct action. Mistakes will happen, they happen to all of us, repeated mistakes are no longer just mistakes they are a weakness. I compare it to the fight game. Make a mistake and your opponent may not pick it up, repeat it enough, and its now a weakness that can end your night early. Nothing against Tarzan, I'm sure he plays well, but he admittedly cops to the fact this is not the only time he has "choked", and it sounds as if it won't be the last. Sorry but this "choke" move as its described here would only happen once with my team. As I said we all make mistakes. After a correction in thinking is made, then no more allowance for such a weakness. Its different to pull back for a heat or longevity purpose, although even that better be explained damn well, but to buckle under pressure, or let ego or hurt feelings effect your play.........Im sorry I have no tolerance for that. Taking bj personal is a mistake in itself. The cards don't have feelings, so being insulted or hurt by how they land for you really makes me laugh. Play correctly and properly funded, with the best possible games you can, and be aware of your surroundings. Have your realistic expectation and risk figured beforehand as best as possible and play the game. Save your feelings for those that feel back. Getting emotionally hurt by a game is just nonsense as far as I'm concerned and I do not buy it as an excuse. Maybe I'm a little hard edged on this, but then again it has served me and those who trust me well.

 

[muppet]

I disagree. It shows how easy it is to take the path of least resistance. And how easy it is to complain about it, and then do it again. I don't care if the penalty for being wrong costs 2 cents or 2,000 dollars, bad habits breed weak play. Especially if you play solo and don't have the benefit of teamates or other skilled players to check you out. Beating yourself up about a mistake is a worthless emotion. Recognizing it and fixing it is the hard, but correct action. Mistakes will happen, they happen to all of us, repeated mistakes are no longer just mistakes they are a weakness. I compare it to the fight game. Make a mistake and your opponent may not pick it up, repeat it enough, and its now a weakness that can end your night early. Nothing against Tarzan, I'm sure he plays well, but he admittedly cops to the fact this is not the only time he has "choked", and it sounds as if it won't be the last. Sorry but this "choke" move as its described here would only happen once with my team. As I said we all make mistakes. After a correction in thinking is made, then no more allowance for such a weakness. Its different to pull back for a heat or longevity purpose, although even that better be explained damn well, but to buckle under pressure, or let ego or hurt feelings effect your play.........Im sorry I have no tolerance for that. Taking bj personal is a mistake in itself. The cards don't have feelings, so being insulted or hurt by how they land for you really makes me laugh. Play correctly and properly funded, with the best possible games you can, and be aware of your surroundings. Have your realistic expectation and risk figured beforehand as best as possible and play the game. Save your feelings for those that feel back. Getting emotionally hurt by a game is just nonsense as far as I'm concerned and I do not buy it as an excuse. Maybe I'm a little hard edged on this, but then again it has served me and those who trust me well.

i nominate this for post of the month :1st:

 

[blackjack avenger]

I Agree With Everything You Said But!

I disagree. It shows how easy it is to take the path of least resistance. And how easy it is to complain about it, and then do it again. I don't care if the penalty for being wrong costs 2 cents or 2,000 dollars, bad habits breed weak play. Especially if you play solo and don't have the benefit of teamates or other skilled players to check you out. Beating yourself up about a mistake is a worthless emotion. Recognizing it and fixing it is the hard, but correct action. Mistakes will happen, they happen to all of us, repeated mistakes are no longer just mistakes they are a weakness. I compare it to the fight game. Make a mistake and your opponent may not pick it up, repeat it enough, and its now a weakness that can end your night early. Nothing against Tarzan, I'm sure he plays well, but he admittedly cops to the fact this is not the only time he has "choked", and it sounds as if it won't be the last. Sorry but this "choke" move as its described here would only happen once with my team. As I said we all make mistakes. After a correction in thinking is made, then no more allowance for such a weakness. Its different to pull back for a heat or longevity purpose, although even that better be explained damn well, but to buckle under pressure, or let ego or hurt feelings effect your play.........Im sorry I have no tolerance for that. Taking bj personal is a mistake in itself. The cards don't have feelings, so being insulted or hurt by how they land for you really makes me laugh. Play correctly and properly funded, with the best possible games you can, and be aware of your surroundings. Have your realistic expectation and risk figured beforehand as best as possible and play the game. Save your feelings for those that feel back. Getting emotionally hurt by a game is just nonsense as far as I'm concerned and I do not buy it as an excuse. Maybe I'm a little hard edged on this, but then again it has served me and those who trust me well.

I think we are talking about something different. There have been 2 players; who probably should have known better, that wrote about conscioulsy betting less at a given moment because of fear; won anyway, and then beat themselves up over it.

I was stating that this is probably human nature, sort of a monday morning (self flagellation) quarterback.

They have done as you suggested; and I agree, analyzed their actions and made the appropriate corrections. However, as you point out Tarzan may not have learned his lesson. Perhaps he will face his inner demons and learn his lesson.:joker::whip:

I also believe it is important to analyze one's play and correct weaknesses. In another thread I wrote about various ways to practice counting down a deck and I think many did not quite understand that in most endeavors continuing practice is an important part of mastery.:joker::whip:

Yes, the closer we play to an inhuman computer probably the better off we will be.

However, it is greed; a human emotion, which keeps us playing.:joker::whip:

Good Cards

 

[kewljason]

My thoughts:

It seems like Bojack was a bit harsh in his assessment and wording, but that's ok. I don't think meant it in a personal way towards Tarzan or anybody else. He was just stating his view. He has obviously mastered the taking of all human elements and emotions out of the game and playing like a machine, something some of us are still working on. In the team concept any deviation or mistake made, effect not just one player but the whole team, so there seems to be little tolerance for any variation.

I myself posted about a month ago, about how after getting off to a very fast start, and being up multiple times above expectations, I was tempted to reduce my unit wager in case of a 'correction'. Now of course I know that no correction is/was due. Nothing is ever due. But that didn't stop the thoughts from creeping into my head nor the temptation from being there. The human factor! So, I myself am still working on completely removing it as well. (for the record, I did not reduce unit size, nor spread)

Now concerning Tarzan. The concept of playing with scared money comes to mind. You mentioned "trip bankroll". I am sure if you had your entire BR, you would have had no problem throwing out more large wagers at the correct time/count. I am not sugguesting you should be carrying your entire BR, by any means. I am just thinking perhaps your trip BR was insufficent for your play. If you have lost enough of your trip BR that you no longer feel comfortable wagering the same amounts, you have two options. You either stop playing for that trip or you reduce your spread to a level that you are comfortable with, which you chose to do. But beating yourself us in hind sight serves absolutely no purpose.

Just curious as to what your thoughts would have been if you had continued to lose after reducing your wagers. Would you have some how felt better about reducing your wager?

 

[Finn Dog]

KJ:

To avoid such thoughts from creeping into one's head, what size trip bankroll do you use personally? (I've been using 12 BBs for a day and 25 BBs for a weekend.)

Regards,

FD

 

[kewljason]

KJ:

To avoid such thoughts from creeping into one's head, what size trip bankroll do you use personally? (I've been using 12 BBs for a day and 25 BBs for a weekend.)

Regards,

FD

Nothing personal, Finn Dog, but I am not going to get into posting how much funds I walk around with on a public message board. :laugh: I am not even going to send you a pm, because what I do is irrelevent. Everyone needs to make their own decisions based on what they are comfortable with.

I will say two thing. One, The majority of my play now takes place in LV and a good deal of the right on the strip. Since I live a couple football feild's off the strip and use a 2 banks that has locations and ATM liberally spread in that area, I am never far away from more funds. Two, 12 big bets would not be enough for me to play with. Lose a couple big bets with splits/doubles and you are scrambling for more funds, which is down time, or in the position to make the decision that Tarzan had to make, stop playing or reduce spread. All of these options cost me money, so I try to avoid putting myself in that position.

 

[Bojack1]

My thoughts:

It seems like Bojack was a bit harsh in his assessment and wording, but that's ok. I don't think meant it in a personal way towards Tarzan or anybody else. He was just stating his view. He has obviously mastered the taking of all human elements and emotions out of the game and playing like a machine, something some of us are still working on. In the team concept any deviation or mistake made, effect not just one player but the whole team, so there seems to be little tolerance for any variation.

If I came off as harsh it was not intended that way. I mean no ill will toward anyone here, I just stated my take on it, I guess with the human element taken off it. But if you were on my team and pulled something like this more than once, then this would seem quite tame as to how I would handle it. You are right kewljason, it gets serious when you f*** with money that is not just your own. Not to mention trust. I am not perfect nor do I know anyone that is. I have screwed up with far worse situations than this, but never twice. Thats what will seperate those that can be potentially elite players, and those that will not. The will nots have a broad range from failure to moderate success, and thats where the overwhelming majority fall into. The elite is a tiny percentage of AP's that finally get the message, don't take losing to inanimate objects personal. Especially when thats part of expectation. If you can't trust the math or yourself, you are forever to be a will not. Again I mean this in general and in no way direct it at any one person. Its only my take on it, it is not blackjack law.

 

[Finn Dog]

Nothing personal, Finn Dog, but I am not going to get into posting how much funds I walk around with on a public message board. :laugh: I am not even going to send you a pm...

You never can be too careful (sorry, the question was indeed too personal--I should have phrased it more generically.)

Best regards,

FD

 

[Tarzan]

Critiquing short term play

I have always closely evaluated each and every playing session, made notes and comparisons of numbers, scribbled things down while fresh on my mind to review upon leaving the casino. This is not a matter of "self-flagellation", simply a matter of critiquing my play in an objective manner. This can go way beyond simple things such as bet spreads and reviewing for any possibilities of mistakes made; It can also involve specific details of playing conditions, things to watch for with certain dealers, what a casino normally does and general conditions during a given shift... an overall "self-debriefing" of sorts for each and every playing session. This makes a huge difference on not only helping you become a better player but also in finding the most suitable playing conditions that offer you the best edge possible right down to which dealer to play against when given a choice. You should try it sometime!

To hear what other professionals have to say on any of these various details that I study and evaluate all helps work toward the same goal, increased proficiency, even if it is essentially "constructive criticism". So WHAT if Bojack thinks I suck and would never make it on a "team" as that is not something that I need or would aspire to do anyway... his thoughts and opinions help me with that whole big picture or "critique" in which I look at the positives, the special notations of details and of course the negatives should they exist or occur.

 

[assume_R]

Tarzan,

Would you have critiqued your play as much had you lost those bets which weren't as large as they should be?

Perhaps in dealing with the human element, it's good you were upset you didn't win more, which caused you to critique your play. I don't know you so can't say either way, but perhaps if you had lost, you might have felt somewhat justified for down-sizing your bets, which would not have made you a stronger player. Just a thought.

Based on your posts and level of experience I think you still would have critiqued your play whether or not you won or lost those big bets.

But there are plenty of aspiring AP's who would have felt "justified" in "choking" if they had lost those bets, and would therefore never improve.

 

[Tarzan]

Yes


Jason asked the same thing. Had I continued to lose, I would have felt about the same about improper bet sizing and I would have bailed upon busting out or nearly busting out the trip BR, which I was close to doing had it not flipped back around like a light switch and I quickly resumed normal betting. Sometimes it just isn't your day!

 

[Automatic Monkey]

That's the thing... I have few or no limitations! So why did I "choke" even a LITTLE? It cost me money to scale back like that. I walked away from that particular playing session "victorious", if you want to call it that... tired and weatherbeaten but with about 30 units less than what I SHOULD have walked away with due to somewhat scaled back betting at a few points in critical counts until my chip stacks built back up.

The easy answer is to increase trip bankroll or to not worry about busting out a trip bankroll, simple as that. You are right--- How does a player such as me do such a thing? It's happened before, no big deal, nothing new and no huge impact on the big picture and the longrun so why? The answer is simple. Busting out a trip bankroll hurts my FEELINGS and my EGO but has little or no effect on my financial well being! I have become so accustomed to carrying an approximate 250 units and that being quite sufficient and I am not used to losing 120-130 units in a given playing session. It's an infrequent occurrence; It's a matter of being able to bring a smaller trip bankroll since I live practically right down the street but this becomes an issue if it affects my betting, which under any ordinary circumstances it wouldn't. Carrying less cash is less to worry about but if it has an effect on proper betting at any point it is detrimental to the longrun, even if it is an isolated instance.

Being a guy who plays carnival games and SP21, let me tell you I am very used to being down 130 units or more! My record is 140 units on one hand.

Recently I've been having the most horrible variance. There is a time to scale back your betting, and that is when it's going to either prevent you from playing (the whole idea of RoR calculations anyway) or prevent you from playing the very next hand properly. If you don't have enough money to split several times and then double, your advantage is degraded and you have to size your bets accordingly. Even in a place like AC it's probably good to know the non-DAS strategy for your game just in case you find yourself in this unpleasant situation.