On being back roomed

[Greasy John]

From what I've read on this and other post sites lately, I'm wondering: If it's illegal to handcuff a patron when he objects to being escorted to the back room, and if it's illegal to take someone's picture without their consent and detained without just cause, then why aren't lawsuits against casinos more successful? I can only guess that the casinos might say, for instance in a hand-held game, that a patron's handling of the cards looked like "work" was being put into them. This could be used to "justify" being back roomed. As regards the casino's taking your picture, I can see how this is an intimidation tactic, but aside from this, is the picture-taking of any real value to the casino? The eye could certainly get a good frontal zoom on a patron during the game or in the casino.

Suppose the casino wants to back room you and you say, "I don't have to show you and ID. If you're going to arrest me call Gaming and Metro, otherwise I'm going to leave now." There's a real Catch 22 here, for you might be successful in "walking" but you've been surely had as a serious card counter.

If, for example, someone plays under their real name and they go voluntarily to the back room and allow their picture to be taken, wouldn't they be less likely to show up in Griffin? (Of course this patron would deny everything.) We all dislike the tactics which some casions use, and I know there's a desire to stand up to illegal and intimidating tactics, but what we do about it is a real dilemma.

Greasy John

 

[The Mayor]

> I'm wondering: If it's illegal to handcuff a patron when he objects to being escorted to the back room, and if it's illegal to take someone's picture without their consent and detained without just cause, then why aren't lawsuits against casinos more successful?

The lawsuits are successful. Bob Nersesian, a lawyer in Las Vegas, is pursuing a number of cases on behalf of advantage players, right now in Las Vegas. Based on his history, there seems to be little doubt about the conclusion to these cases. The only matter in doubt is how much the casino will pay in damages, and that does not always seem to be satisfactory.

>I can only guess that the casinos might say, for instance in a hand-held game, that a patron's handling of the cards looked like "work" was being put into them. This could be used to "justify" being back roomed.

If you suspect the action, you have to have proof that you can later present that establish your suspicions. Maybe LTC will comment more on this.

> is the picture-taking of any real value to the casino?

Yes, they can post the photo in various ways, public and private, to make your life a bit tougher the next time you enter a casino.

> Suppose the casino wants to back room you and you say, "I don't have to show you and ID. If you're going to arrest me call Gaming and Metro, otherwise I'm going to leave now." There's a real Catch 22 here, for you might be successful in "walking" but you've been surely had as a serious card counter.

You were already made as a counter, or else you wouldn't be in the back room to begin with. That's already a done deal. The only thing that matters here is that your civil rights are being violated. And, if you fight these guys, you are not going to make things any easier. Cooperate while it is happening, fight the good fight later.

> If, for example, someone plays under their real name and they go voluntarily to the back room and allow their picture to be taken, wouldn't they be less likely to show up in Griffin? (

Do you live on Jupiter? I don't know what could possibly make you think that casinos will be nice to you if you are nice to them.

Thanks for opening up the topic,

-Mayor

 

[learning to count]

Re: On being back roomed "REVISED"

""I can only guess that the casinos might say, for instance in a hand-held game, that a patron's handling of the cards looked like "work" was being put into them. This could be used to "justify" being back roomed.""

First of all the casino has a basic right to hold and detain a suspected criminal. This right extends to them the right to use enough force to detain the suspect to wit: Handcuffs. This is an extension of police powers which is similar to the right for a store security person to catch and hold a shoplifter then they have to call for a police officer to make a official report and arrest.

The Problem in vegas is that the security people are possibly never taught that with this police power you have to have "PROBABLE CAUSE". Probable Cause is defined as the "BELIEF" that a crime has occurred, is occuring, or is about to occurr. This "BELIEF" intails a legal, provable investigation and or survelliance. By doing an investigation you are gathering evidence showing the proof that a state gaming law has been violated. Beating the casino/winning is not a crime.

To do an investigation is obviously a difficult thing for Casino security to do. It is obvious that either the casino's are misusing these laws and or they are stupid. Since greed is involved I think that corruption has a lot to do with it. Thus the misuse of these laws is what is occurring here.

In conclusion the proper use of this power is for stopping criminal acts not for harrassing skilled advantage players who have not violated any state statutes. The harrassment/detainment of a legal winner, lucky or skilled, is "WRONG"! It is also illegal.

As far as being taken into custody by security people. Dont fight, dont show any physical aggression. Would you trust a eight dollar an hour gorilla who carries a 357 magnum and a whole host of painful weapons (chemical and electric) not to kill you if you resisted?!!!!! Hey look what those redneck cops did to Rodney K. and he was under arrest for a legitimate crime.

Do ask for the police or gaming law enforcement. Refuse to show non law enforcement your ID. Only show law enforcement your ID if you are under arrest. Law Enforcement can ask any one to ID them selves for any reason; but short of an arrest a citizen does not have to do so. I ID my self to law enforcement only. This in the spirit of cooperation; they being professional POLICE/LAW ENFORCEMENT. The casinos can go F>ck themselves!

Oh and don't answer any questions that the casino gorrilas may ask you. Advise them they have violated your civil rights and they are violating state and federal laws. Even better clam-up dont say a thing. Silence is golden. Even if you do get arrested. You have the right to consult with an attorney before and during any questioning by law enforcement. You have the right to have attorney present during questioning. If you are arrested give your ID info to the police only!

Advise the security casino gorrilas that you are leaving and walk away. If they corral you dont fight dont touch them. Dont make any hand movements so they can say you attacked them. Stay in obvious public areas in full view of cameras. If you get out side leave quickly/run! Cash your chips later. Send some one to pickup your car later. Stay away from that casino for 3 to 6 months or don't play there at all. If you are blocked and can't leave stay calm and don't move. If you want to challenge them sit on the floor and cover your head and say "please don't beat; me please don't hurt me. I know my rights. I have done nothing wrong". If they grab you and floor you . Let them. Don't resist. If they hand cuff you thats good then. If they have no case they have just violated the law. Illegal detainment. You can choose to then get up and walk into the back room or better let em carry you. In the sixties many were beaten illegally by the police and national guard when using this non violent tactic. Hey Ghandi took his country back from the British through peaceful resistance.

Witnesses,have witnesses. They can call the police for you and a Lawyer! I am carrying a small digital recorder which I announce to the security gorillas that I am taping the incident. They will watch what they say. If they take it that is theft.

LIsten this is my advice. Many other AP's are aggressive and choose other ways to handle the situation. This my humble suggestion/oppinion. If you don't aggree then take what action you are comfortable with and good luck. The money is there you just gotta have big balls to take it!

 

[learning to count]

""I can only guess that the casinos might say, for instance in a hand-held game, that a patron's handling of the cards looked like "work" was being put into them. This could be used to "justify" being back roomed.""

Sorry I did not fully answer your question. In a hand held game. I follow the rules. Hold the cards with one hand and only hold them for a brief moment. I show my hands palms up frequently fingers spread so the eye can see them clearly. This way they cant review the film and say I was hiding my palms or I was holding something between fingers. Why give them a reason. The funniest thing I ever saw was some old ding bats holding the cards as if they were playing poker! Ploppies !

 

[The Mayor]

This one belongs in the "Best Posts"

Great post LTC! Thanks for sharing your expertise with us.

-Mayor

 

[FLA Player]

Re: This one belongs in the "Best Posts"

Very informative....great post as always LTC- one thing that wasn't brought up (I haven't been backroomed yet in my short AP career, knock on wood)- the best advice is to NOT get pegged as a counter in the first place, in short work on your COVER!!!! You need to have an act, don't get noticed (due to bet spread, wonging in, etc) and don't overstay your welcome.

And don't get me wrong, if I get handcuffed I'm calling Bob Nersesian as soon as I hit the street (his number is programmed in my cell phone)

FLA Player

 

[Ed Tice]

Just my $0.02. Although we all hate to have our civil rights violated, one sure way to avoid it is to avoid being pegged as an AP. Remember that a casino is a business. The decision makers arent always competent, but its their job to look at the bottom line.

If we start winning lawsuits then the casinos will change their tactics. But if thez decide that the cost of AP is too high, they will take other steps against us, even if it costs them ploppy business. (Its somebodys job to work out these types of things for the casino). This hurts us in the long run.

We are doing ourselves a favor if we stay off the radar screen as much as possible. Its probably very hard to measure the exact costs of AP, so somebody has to estimate it. If that person is always hearing about barrings, backroomings, and law suits, they might make a risk averse (possibly not smart) decision thats not good for everybodz.

The casino has quite a few weapons at its disposal, none of which we want to see brandished. (including more cheating shuffling machines... yes we all know how bad they are for everybody, but somebody not getting a balanced picture may draw bad conclusions).

I just think that escalation is not helping anybody. I realize that the casinos are doing the escalating, but perhaps there is something (no I dont have any ideas in mind) that we can do to diffuse the heightening tensions instead of turning them uglier?

Like dont get made as a counter!

Ed

 

[learning to count]

"A Good Act"
What is a good act. Its playing the best you can and being aggressive. Cover bet play is hard on the EV. What are you going to do lose a string of minimum bets and think that the eye is going to say your a chump. All the while stashng the eight or nine grand you have won down your pants. Dont worry guys believe it or not they watch where the black chips go. Cover play for red and even green is worthless and will hurt the small edge win you have. AT those levels your EV gets hit hard when you purposely throw the hand and lose the bet. The casino is looking for winners buddy and not losers. Stashing chips is an art and should be avoided when playing a short time. I agree with LV BEAR sometimes you have to damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead. The ploppies, who cares, they are a$$-wholes any way. The best cover is to wong in and out and keep aware of the suits and the PITBOSS vulture who is hovering over head. I dont have all the answers but I do try and make my money and then RUN! Thats Blackjack. A lot of that cover sh!t is bull and macho bragging after a lucky run. Every one wants to feel like they fooled the big bad evil casino and be James Bond. The Pros are better at finding the advantage and striking fast befor the evil monster in the sky swoops down on them. Hey Just my Ignorant and humble oppinion. LTC