Optimal Strategy to Learn Counting

[bluewhale]

Recently from a thread started by Joel i realized that we are focussing on a lot of stupid things (ie entertaining ridiculous questions about progressions, table position, which gives the player a negligible advantage, etc.). Also i have been practicing for my first casino session and have realized that counting is a LOT tougher than i thought it would be.

What I am looking for here is advice from the pros for the best way to learn a basic hi/low system. I have memorized BS perfectly. Also i can count down a deck in under 20 seconds. BUT, when a buddy of mine dealt for me, i could never keep the count through a 6 deck shoe. That is the most important thing. So sagefrog told me the best way to practice is to NOT deal cards and play BJ. A good method is to do various drills (deck countdowns, mentally counting by 1 and 2 increments at random times in the day, mentally practicing BS etc... http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=15805&postcount=5).

Personally I would have thought that practicing with a dealer (even non-professional), would be the best way to practice. I won't pretend to know more than sagefrog, but i atleast want to see what the pros think about the best way to get your basic counting skillz.

Anyway, i think this issue is extremely important and really the whole point of this board. I have exactly 2 weeks before my trip and am willing to practice as much as possible, but from my results i don't know if i can actually be good enough by then, which is extremly disapointing.

 

[ScottH]

Recently from a thread started by Joel i realized that we are focussing on a lot of stupid things (ie entertaining ridiculous questions about progressions, table position, which gives the player a negligible advantage, etc.). Also i have been practicing for my first casino session and have realized that counting is a LOT tougher than i thought it would be.

What I am looking for here is advice from the pros for the best way to learn a basic hi/low system. I have memorized BS perfectly. Also i can count down a deck in under 20 seconds. BUT, when a buddy of mine dealt for me, i could never keep the count through a 6 deck shoe. That is the most important thing. So sagefrog told me the best way to practice is to NOT deal cards and play BJ. A good method is to do various drills (deck countdowns, mentally counting by 1 and 2 increments at random times in the day, mentally practicing BS etc... http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=15805&postcount=5).

Personally I would have thought that practicing with a dealer (even non-professional), would be the best way to practice. I won't pretend to know more than sagefrog, but i atleast want to see what the pros think about the best way to get your basic counting skillz.

Anyway, i think this issue is extremely important and really the whole point of this board. I have exactly 2 weeks before my trip and am willing to practice as much as possible, but from my results i don't know if i can actually be good enough by then, which is extremly disapointing.

The best way to practice counting is not by drills, it is by actually counting. Of course if you cant even keep the count for one 6-deck shoe than you shouldn't practice in a casino. Use software. CV is a good practice software. I have never used it for counting practice, but it looks really good.I used the KO software which is much less realistic than CV, and it did wonders to improve my ability to keep the count with fast dealing.

So dont go back to the casino for a while. Practice on software. Now that you tried to count in a casino you will know how much practicing you have to do to keep up.

 

[sagefr0g]

Recently from a thread started by Joel i realized that we are focussing on a lot of stupid things (ie entertaining ridiculous questions about progressions, table position, which gives the player a negligible advantage, etc.). Also i have been practicing for my first casino session and have realized that counting is a LOT tougher than i thought it would be.

What I am looking for here is advice from the pros for the best way to learn a basic hi/low system. I have memorized BS perfectly. Also i can count down a deck in under 20 seconds. BUT, when a buddy of mine dealt for me, i could never keep the count through a 6 deck shoe. That is the most important thing. So sagefrog told me the best way to practice is to NOT deal cards and play BJ. A good method is to do various drills (deck countdowns, mentally counting by 1 and 2 increments at random times in the day, mentally practicing BS etc... http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=15805&postcount=5).

Personally I would have thought that practicing with a dealer (even non-professional), would be the best way to practice. I won't pretend to know more than sagefrog, but i atleast want to see what the pros think about the best way to get your basic counting skillz.

Anyway, i think this issue is extremely important and really the whole point of this board. I have exactly 2 weeks before my trip and am willing to practice as much as possible, but from my results i don't know if i can actually be good enough by then, which is extremly disapointing.

bluewhale one reason that i prefer not to practice according to the method that you earlier described is that it takes up quite a bit of time.
i believe the steps i described are a more efficient method for practice.
i believe you are in a time bind and i believe you already have basic strategy down. but as you describe it what you need is practice counting. i believe the steps i described are the fundamentals you need to become proficient in counting. escpecially the spreading the cards on the table and counting them. but it would also be wise to use some software as a proving ground for your self to see if you can count and play at the same time. cvb would be great for that. pracitce on the software some with people around that will distract you and with music playing ect. you can download the cvb software for free and practice counting with it. only thing is some cards are missing in the free version but that wont hurt your counting practice.
oh and by the way you don't have to pretend to know more than i. believe me it is highly likely that you know much more than i ever will. it's a beautiful world :joker:

 

[shadroch]

Assuming you are going to Vegas,the easiest thing is just avoid six deck shoes.
Play downtown. El Cortez has a nice DD shoe,dealt face up.If you mess up the count,you can drop to their minimum($3-5) for a few hands until their is a new shoe.On or near the strip,Slots of Fun,Ellis Island and Wild West have $5 or less DD games.Check http://www.wizardofodds.com for some higher stake DD games

 

[21forme]

Are you counting in pairs or individually?

If you can count a deck in under 20 secs, you shouldn't be having a problem. Can you be more specific where you're losing it?

 

[EasyRhino]

Keep hope alive Whaler, I don't even come close to counting down a deck in 30 sec, but I can play at 6d shoes all day.*

- You mention you know BS cold. I've found that there's a difference between knowing it completely accurately, and knowing it "unconsciously". After I've played many thousands of hands online hustling bonuses, I now know it pretty much unconsciously. This is handy because it frees up brainspace for counting.

- It sounds like you can count down a deck quick, so the next step I would try is see if you can backcount a table with multiple players. You could maybe set some software like casino verity on autobot-play, or maybe have a friend just deal out and play out hands by himself, with you observing. If you have problems here, it's just the pacing of the casino game that you're not used to.

- If that's easy, then go back to playing while counting. This can be a difficult bit of multitasking to master the first time. I actually found it easiest to start at a crowded, slow table, it was much easier than heads-up.

* disclaimer, I only use KO.

 

[bluewhale]

just to reply to a few posts... i definately know basic strategy unconsiously. i've played upwards of 100,000 hands of blackjack while bonus hustling. in fact i've also memorized BS for single deck bj, H17, and BJ switch and with the surrender rule.

when i say under 20 secs, i mean by keeping all the cards face up, and then rifling through them 1 at a time.

basically the problem that i think i have is switching between counting single decks on my own, and counting on software (and yes, i have casino verite) and going to an actual table. on the table i play with random family members who know virtually nothing about BJ (which i feel simulates a casino environment well). so people tend to not follow basic strategy, have random conversations, talk to me, interrupt play, etc.) now this keeps the game going slow, but with all these distractions even if i miss 1 card, i'm off for the entire shoe right. i played 8 shoes over the weekend, was 1 off the count 5 times, and was waaayy off the other times.

however.... a ray of hope, when i play with just 1 dealer and me, no distractions, and dealer going as fast as he can physically deal, i can keep the count perfectly (i had it right 3 shoes in a row).

so obviously the problem lies in distractions, which WILL OCCUR in a casino. so i guess the new questions is, how do you stay focussed, not drop the count, not miss a card etc.

o also i kinda use a crossing off method of counting, i try to wait till the second card of each hand is dealt, and then cross off as much as possible. a problem with this method is when things don't cross off (ie the count goes up a lot or down a lot), and then i am scrabling to add, and then someone starts hitting busts, and i am left guessing

 

[EasyRhino]

Okay, sounds like the problem is "parking" the count in your mind while you can deal with random distractions, like ogling the cocktail waitress. And that's what I due, I try to go through an extra fraction of second of effort to store the count when I know a distraction is afoot. Also, it helps me to visualze the number in my head as a numeral, it frees up the verbal space in my mind.

As for canceling, my preferred is to totally ignore the table until the first player gets his second card, and then count by pairs (and if you haven't been practicing canceling pairs, work on that, too). Anyway, the goal is to count down each players' pair before they start drawing more cards, then start counting singletons. Playing catchup is possible, or temporarily stopping counting to make your play decision, then re-starting, but it's tougher.

 

[ScottH]

so obviously the problem lies in distractions, which WILL OCCUR in a casino. so i guess the new questions is, how do you stay focussed, not drop the count, not miss a card etc.

This problem will go away with a little experience. Everyone gets distracted when they first practice out of the confort of their own home. After only a few hours of casino experience there really wasn't anything that could distract me. It's always the same noise, table talk, waitress, etc. It all becomes routine after a while.

Like Rhino said, it's all about keeping the count in your head while that distraction is going on. And that gets better with practice as well. Sometimes I have found myself repeating the count over and over in my mind, even after I have left the table! It just becomes a habit after a while.

 

[halcyon1234]

When I'm practicing counting, I do it with six decks, a stack of poker chips, and the TV on. The TV acts as my distraction. I'll be sure there's something on I want to watch, but that doesn't need all my attention. (Simpsons reruns! =) ). I try talking aloud to, to practice my cover. Mention junk like "the flow" or rationalizing insurance bets "You didn't have bj last time, you're due this time". Whenever I find my brain is lagging a second or two on the count, I'll bring out The Act. IE: Hands were dealt. I know the count is +5. I'll agonize over a hand for a bit "Another 16. Gee. Thanks. Thanks a lot." or celebrate "Oh year, two elevens. I'm so doublin that!". All the while mentally catching up with the count (two face, two small-- no change).

I'm very much at the same level you are at. Good BS, quick count down, good cover. But what I'm learning is that I'm still a bit deficient in betting according to my bankroll. I've been looking over how I've been playing over the past few days (I've blown my virtual bankroll several times in recent practices), and I've come to determine that I need more practice with bankroll management. I need to know how to bet with a high count that will get me both a good return, and isn't putting me at undue risk of ruin. Be sure to practice that a lot. because at home, I can just grab another $500 in chips and start again (hit the reset button). Once you are in the casino, the cash you have is the cash you have, and you need to protect it.

 

[mdlbj]

also i kinda use a crossing off method of counting, i try to wait till the second card of each hand is dealt, and then cross off as much as possible. a problem with this method is when things don't cross off (ie the count goes up a lot or down a lot), and then i am scrambling to add, and then someone starts hitting busts, and i am left guessing

This is great stuff...

As someone said above, you should use meaningful pairs when counting. And cross off or cancel out any pairs that x each other out. such as A-4 K-6 etc.. Also, you can use the dealers up card as well. As you count up to 2nd base or so, use the dealers up card to factor in the count and then continue to third base. Once you have that count. Start with the next hit card. Should only take you a second or 2 to do this.

Yeah yeah Sorry.

Distractions, Its part of the game. I think the more table time you have you will find it much easier. When you have your friend deal to you, just keep the running count through the 4-8 decks and see how far you are off at the end, once you can do this with 3 or less counting mistakes, then start doing your TC conversions at 1 deck then 2 etc until you can do your TC conversion @ 1/4 decks through the full shoe with 3 or less mistakes.

Hope this helps..

Was just in vegas this weekend and the PB, wait staff, dealers just loved talking to me along with the people at the table playing asking about what they should do with their hands. I had a friend there who is learning Hi-Lo and she was amazed how I could do all of it and not loose count.

Just takes time and practice.

 

[bluewhale]

good news...

alright, so i just played today with my buddy for 7 straight hours (dinner/tv break in the middle). i was off by 2 once (the first time). off and off by 1 once(third time). and right every other time! its on!!!

also note that the times i was off don't really matter... this is because the count went into the double digit negatives and that threw me off. although i still think i should be able to handle that (and i did handle that later on tonight).
so yeah, i'm doing another practice binge tomorrow, and then 1 more before the trip.

 

[halcyon1234]

If the count starts going into the double digit negatives you should "handle" it by picking up your chips and going to a different table.

 

[bluewhale]

If the count starts going into the double digit negatives you should "handle" it by picking up your chips and going to a different table.

yeah, lol, i wasn't clear in my post.... but i said that the times i was off didn't really matter (ie because i wouldn't be playing at those counts in a casino anyway).

 

[mdlbj]

alright, so i just played today with my buddy for 7 straight hours (dinner/tv break in the middle). i was off by 2 once (the first time). off and off by 1 once(third time). and right every other time! its on!!!

also note that the times i was off don't really matter... this is because the count went into the double digit negatives and that threw me off. although i still think i should be able to handle that (and i did handle that later on tonight).
so yeah, i'm doing another practice binge tomorrow, and then 1 more before the trip.

Great! I do a little check out before my trips as well. It helps. Good luck. Now you should start thinking about how much you will bet per your count. QFIT has some good software for this. check it out.

Here is the link.. http://www.card-counting.com/cvcxonlineviewer.htm
Password is 100

 

[bluewhale]

Great! I do a little check out before my trips as well. It helps. Good luck. Now you should start thinking about how much you will bet per your count. QFIT has some good software for this. check it out.

Here is the link.. http://www.card-counting.com/cvcxonlineviewer.htm
Password is 100

this calculator is completely messed...
i selected hi-low, ill 18, fab 4, S17, DAS
60 hands/hr, backcounting, simplify bets, everything else the same
now i go from a pen of 65% to 70% and the $/hr goes down and SCORE goes down. this clearly isn't possible. am i missing something here? also you can't select what your unit is, so i can't figure out how to do teh optimal bet.

 

[mdlbj]

this calculator is completely messed...
i selected hi-low, ill 18, fab 4, S17, DAS
60 hands/hr, backcounting, simplify bets, everything else the same
now i go from a pen of 65% to 70% and the $/hr goes down and SCORE goes down. this clearly isn't possible. am i missing something here? also you can't select what your unit is, so i can't figure out how to do teh optimal bet.

It is based on your bankroll, the other questions, QFIT will have to answer or someone who can explain the math based on these settings. Its an aggressive Betting schema and is borderline psychotic if you are limited on funds. It does not or I believe that is does not play by a kelly system. I use it and it has paid out quite well.

 

[bluewhale]

It is based on your bankroll, the other questions, QFIT will have to answer or someone who can explain the math based on these settings. Its an aggressive Betting schema and is borderline psychotic if you are limited on funds. It does not or I believe that is does not play by a kelly system. I use it and it has paid out quite well.

i entered 5k as BR

 

[mdlbj]

Your min would be 20 or 4 red.