Personal classes

CharlieChip

New Member
Thanks for the info Sonny!

There is a guy running a class out of So Cal for $1500 or so for two days of training. One day at his office, one day at one of the Indian gaming casinos. Is the $1500 class a potential good investment? Or is there enough info on the site here to learn to count effectively. The author of the training site I am referring to brings up the point that learning to count isn't too hard, it is where to play, how to play, and how not to get caught, that make his classes worth the money. My only issue with this is, if he is bringing students to Vegas and the Indian Casinos every week, wouldn't the casinos immediately finger him as an AP? Or maybe his training ultimately doesn't work or isn't useful in today's game and the casinos welcome him and his students???

Anyone have any thoughts on this. Is it worth the money? Thanks-
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
I started a new thread with this post because I think it is an important topic.

CharlieChip said:
There is a guy running a class out of So Cal for $1500 or so for two days of training…Is the $1500 class a potential good investment?
Hell no! You can learn how to count for free at almost any BJ website. You‘ll probably end up spending $30 or so on books if you want to learn more than just the basics, but there’s absolutely no reason to spend $1,500 for a 2-day training class.

Now I’m not saying the guy is trying to rip you off. I mean, he might be a great player and his time might be worth more than $1,500. Certainly there is no substitute for having a mentor to immediately answer any questions you have and keep you on the right track. I just think that $1,500 is too much and two days is too short. With a little patience you can learn everything you need to know on websites like this (and many others).

CharlieChip said:
The author of the training site I am referring to brings up the point that learning to count isn't too hard, it is where to play, how to play, and how not to get caught, that make his classes worth the money.
Yeah, but you won’t learn all that in two days. He won’t even be able to get past the basics. Take your time, read a few books and post a lot of questions. You’ll be able to get the same education for much less money. In fact, it will probably be a better education since you’ll get many different points of view and you’ll have plenty of time to think about the answers you get.

Personally, I wouldn’t want to take a course that was like “Day 1 – Learn to count. Day 2 – Learn how to avoid detection. Day 3 – You’re on your own.” If this guy is a pro-level player than his class would be much better for a serious player who already knows all of that stuff and has some specific questions about advanced play, but most people get that either from websites or from doing their own homework.

Skip the class, but try to keep a friendly relationship with the guy. Maybe it'll come in handy later, or maybe you'll find out it's a scam after talking to him some more. Either way you win.

-Sonny-
 

RJT

Well-Known Member
I'd like to offer a few points to this discussion.
You absolutely do not have to spend $1500 to learn to count cards. You do have to put far more than $1500 worth of your time and dedication into getting good.
I have never taken a seminar or training course in my life and overall i'd say i'm a fairly good player. I'm not great, but i'm fairly good.
I've invested far more than $1500 to get to the stage i'm at in reading and equipement etc etc, but that's excessive and you don't need half of the book collection i've got to get good - i just like reading about the subject.
What i would say is that along the way i've had the advice and guidence of some very good pros. Guys that have taken time out and looked over my game, giving advice on what i need to do to improve.
You'll reach a point where you hit the 'glass ceiling' by yourself - as you do when you self teach anything - and at that point it is very useful to have more experienced players point you in the right direction, whether that be by seminar, training course or through some of the friends you've made along the way.
Taking advice of internet message boards is useful up to an extent, but there are several factors you should always remember -
1) Internet posters can't actually see you play so much of their advice is based on your description and their limited imaginations.
2) Many of them have a vested interest in you following their advice. Be that because they want to sell you something or simply because they like the ego kick they get out of everyone accrediting them for their knowledge
3) By far the most of the people who post online are not as good as they say - or even think - they are.
This does not apply in all situations, and there are many very knowledgable people out there posting online who's advice you would be wise to follow, but there are far more hacks, so be prepared to really consider who and what you want to believe.

RJT.
 

LeonShuffle

Well-Known Member
RJT said:
3) By far the most of the people who post online are not as good as they say - or even think - they are.

RJT.
I'll second that.

However, I happen to be the greatest blackjack player in the history of the world.
 

RJT

Well-Known Member
LeonShuffle said:
I'll second that.

However, I happen to be the greatest blackjack player in the history of the world.
And have a top notch sense of humor! :joker: :cool:

RJT.
 

Bojack1

Well-Known Member
It might surprise a few as I have been accused in the past as a schiller of seminars, but I agree that a 2 day $1500 class will not ready you for casino play. I would be suspect of anyone who says so. Its quite possible to get great advice and guidelines for playing a good game, but I can't buy that anyone could play like they should in a casino in just 2 days, regardless of the cost or of who teaches the class. It is true that for a fraction of the price you could buy and read books on the subject of advantage play, and even accumulate a vast amount of knowledge over the internet for free. I would be wary of message board advice though until you have aquired enough understanding of the basics, as you will find many offering advice that might not be as helpful as it sounds.

I do however believe if you can find someone who is a legitimate successful AP to be something of a teacher or mentor, that could be priceless for the future of your game. I believe there are too few players out there that ever really gain the value of true experience from someone who's been there done that. Of course to be good at what you do you will need your own experience, but how many players out there get their only interaction with the AP world through an internet message board. Although I have found communicating over message boards a better experience than I thought I would, It pales in comparison with my actual interaction with real AP's over the years. I hope that all aspiring AP's and even the more experienced ones get the chance to associate with those that are accomplished at the craft, as there is a wealth of knowledge to be gained sometimes in such meetings. I just don't think there needs to be a price tag on it for it to happen.
 

Tarzan

Banned
Save yourself 1500!

A two day seminar could do little to help a novice player or even a relatively experienced nonprofessional player in my humble opinion. You can buy a few books and slowly soak them in and flip cards at your kitchen table over coffee for a few hours at a pop and over a period of time, a lot longer than two days is all, you will gain 100 times what any two day seminar could possibly do for you. That's my best guess, anyway.

I never attended any seminars...my blackjack playing started back in around 1985 after hearing about "card-counting" and an advantage and blah blah blah. I was still in the Navy at the time and I aced exams that were impossible to ace, memorized portions of tech manuals to the point of being able to recite paragraphs word per word, hence being able to score 4.0 on any given exam, etc., so I figured I could track cards and diddled about with it. At that point I hadn't read Ed Thorp's book so devised in my own head what made sense for me as far as counting and being able to figure out what cards were in the remainder of the shoe. I practiced it a bit and got to the point of being able to flip through 2 or more decks and tell you what the last remaining batch of cards was.
I still had never played blackjack before in a casino, though! The first time I ever played for real was a "casino night" for the Navy Relief Society, a fundraiser thing where I put my practice to the test on a $1 minimum and $10 dollar maximum. The blackjack table was doing well until I started playing and I ended up breaking the bank and they had to shut down the blackjack game! (I never felt bad about whacking this particular charity because Navy Relief is one of those strange charities that the command pushes people to give to and it rakes in a ton of money yet they really do about NOTHING for the guys and if someone needed emergency leave, Navy Relief would give them an "interest free" loan for a family emergency at best; In all my years I never saw them actually give 10 cents to ANYONE that they didn't have to pay back so where the hell did all that money GO???).
I was thinking maybe I was on to something here and eventually started playing in actual casinos and did quite well...BEFORE I ever started reading any books. I found out that my counting method was "above and beyond the call of duty" as compared to a high/low count but stuck with it because that's how I initially learned so that's what I stuck with. I felt that knowing of an abundance or lack of 6-9 meant a lot with reference to player 12/13 against the dealer's 2/3 showing. There's more to it but I will bore you will that part. I started reading ALL the blackjack books then, although I did not go with the other counting methods, I tried to learn all I could from these true masters of the game beyond just the counting parts.
I have never been to a blackjack seminar or anything like that; I am completely self taught but even though I have been a very successful player for all these years, I still take advantage of reading or knowing what truly remarkable players of notariety have to say. You can buy a few books and learn more than what you could EVER learn at some seminar. You can hang out here and read what some of these guys have to say, some of them are experts and I read every word of what they say avidly. Stanford Wong and Arnold Snyder and a few other great pros of notoriety have websites where you can buy a few books and also gather much knowledge just poking around the site!
Time, effort, $200 worth of books and reading through some of the stuff on here that guys like Zengrifter and a few others write will get you more than any two day seminar, I think. Would I go to some sort of seminar or something 'er other? Only if it were a social thing to hang out!...not because I feel it would enhance my game any! I spend 30 hours a week playing in the casinos and never see other counters to speak of, so the socialization factor and being able to hang out with other blackjack players (REAL blackjack players and not the dummies I may play alongside at the casinos all day, that is...) is appealing...but not worth $1500 to me just the same!
 

ihate17

Well-Known Member
2 days?

In the past I have taught a couple of relatives and tried to teach a friend or two who seemed sincere. This was out of love or friendship, so no money exchanged hands.
I believe you can learn basic strategy and how to count in two days. If you are really sharp you might learn some indices also. But putting that all together in a casino with all its distractions and with real money on the line and the human emotions can be invoked by a negative run is impossible.

Counting is the easiest part of being an advantage player, understanding ROR, understanding just how your opponent (casino) operates and all the stuff that your emotions can create (under betting, steaming, looking paranoid, etc etc) takes a long period of experience for most of us but much more than 2 days for all of us.

ihate17
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
Sonny said:
Hell no! You can learn how to count for free at almost any BJ website. You‘ll probably end up spending $30 or so on books if you want to learn more than just the basics, but there’s absolutely no reason to spend $1,500 for a 2-day training class.
How refreshing. Couldn't agree with you more.

Investing in a few books and software, say $100-$200, like you say, doesn't hurt.

If you can't do it yourself, have faith in yourself, you can't do it.

It's like spending $1000 for a new set of clubs isn't going to make my swing better :)
 

CharlieChip

New Member
Thanks so much for the great responses and the encouragement! Good advice, and what you are all saying is what I kind of felt in my heart! It seemed too good to be true to actually be able to take a magic class and have a decent game in a few days.

I have been practicing basic strategy for six months so have a good handle on that, but have just recently started to count. It isn't easy. It's frusterating, but I am making slow progress after finding this site a week ago...

I'll keep practicing and put my $1500 towards my initial bankroll (when the time comes). If there is any other newbie info you guys can think of, feel free to let me know.

THanks-
 
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