Philosophical question

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Kurt M. Rufa

New Member
This is more addressed to those who pursue advantage play but don't make a living at it. I'm hoping to understand people's mindsets---specifically, the sophisticated and disciplined mindsets that frequent this forum---in the hope that this might help in forming my own. I hope this isn't off topic or beaten to death -- if so please consider it instantly moderated by Our Gracious Host.

Would you continue to play even if conditions everywhere were such that you couldn't achieve positive EV at the game? For instance, suppose the whole world was such that you could only enter at the beginning of a shoe, 8 decks, 25% penetration, and you could only bet either one or two units until the deck was reshuffled.[0] Maybe basic strategy is -0.5%; if you play using all the info available you can achieve -0.2%.

Would you still play, at the minimum betting level, at /negative/ ev, just to execute a sort of craft and mental discipline? To know that not only are you playing this game better than 99% of players, but of 99.99% of players? To enjoy the knowledge that you're engaging your mind while playing, in a real, financial, and 'testable' way, a demonstration of concentration where the stakes are as real as the temptations and distractions?

[0] My instincts, yet uneducated, suggest that this will never be a +ev game. If I'm wrong, add whatever restrictions necessary to make it even or less.
 
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Rob McGarvey

Well-Known Member
No +EV, No Play

An advantage player looks to invest his her money into the most highly profitable playing conditions for the shortest period of time. Think of it like the % return you get on your bank account. 3% is better than 1%. One month is better than three. No swings are better than 1SD is better than 2SD. I generally work with a double digit edge and like to work with that or better. Anything less is selling yourself short.
 
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ZOD

Well-Known Member
Would I continue to play an even game? Interesting question. But for me, a no brainer. I'm not a gambling addict; I have no need for the rush of the bet. The mental discipline, the "sharper mind", these things are a welcome by product of my play. But the fact is, I play for the score. In blackjack, the score is counted in chips.

It's not that I don't enjoy the game and the travel and the personalities that come along with it. In a longer session, sometimes I even get into this marvelous rhythm with the ebb and flow of the cards...almost a "blackjack high." But these sidelights are not enough to sustain me.

I don't make a living at blackjack. But it's a very lucrative pastime and I've certainly gotten used to the extra money. If the nearby casinos changed their game so that advantage play was nullified, I'd find another hobby.

Best...

ZOD
 
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The Mayor

Well-Known Member
Almost everyone on the face of the planet continues to play with negative EV. So this is not much of a question, it is more a statement of fact. But, learning advantage play is sort of like taking the blue pill (in the movie, The Matrix), you can never go back. For me, I just don't want EV, I want lots of EV, so even games that are weakly positive I avoid.

Life is too short to waste losing money.

--Mayor
 
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learning to count

Well-Known Member
The bottom line is that 8 decks suck. The casinos think that two decks cut off are the norm on 8 decks. Accompany this with lousy rules and high minimums; forget about it! If you have to play wong.

For some reason six deck shoes are great fun. They are long enough to get positive counts that could last through the whole shoe and great for wonging because of the shuffle machines. I get lots of time on six deckers and before you no it they shuffle up quick. I always feel like I back count for ever on eight decks especially if they are positive/nuetral. Save your bottle returns and have yard sales and buy a ticket to vegas! LTC Where is that ZENGRIFTER?
 
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SammyBoy

Well-Known Member
I can definitely say that I would continue to play, but only occasionally. A few hours a year maybe. Since finding a decent place to play SD I won't play the 6 deck shoes anymore. I used to play blackjack just for the fun of it before I learned to count. But losing is not fun. The only fun I have now is walking out with the casino's money.
 
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Felix Rue-de-Guerre

Well-Known Member
When I was still a BS player I would sometimes also play craps or baccarat as well as BJ. Once there was an evening where I spent about equal time at all three games. When the pit boss ran my players card through the computer he remarked: "Wow, you've really been around tonight!".

About a month ago, at the same casino, it occured to me that if one of their first impressions of me is the play data off the computer, it might be a good idea to make some minimum bets at some other games to make it look like I don't play backjack exclusively.

So, for the first time in the six or seven months I've been counting, I played craps. It goes to show how much my perspective has changed over the past half a year or so. 5 bucks with ten in odds. I used to think I was smart doing this. Hey, no house adavantage on those odds bets, can't do much better than that.

Wait a minute... I'm still losing the same amount on the pass line. All free odds are doing for me is increasing variance. This sucks! I actually felt uncomfortable. It truly bothered me.

So, if the games were ever so horribly corrupted, as Mr. Rufa proposes, I may play once in a while for old times sake. But it may be time for Felix to start studying the stock market.

-Felix
 
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Felix Rue-de-Guerre

Well-Known Member
Incidentally....

Incidentally, I think this was an exellent post Mr. Rufa.
Off topic?... Definately not.
Beaten to death?... Impossible. This topic deserves at least as much attention as any discussion about hard math or anything else.

To directly answer your question:
I believe the mindset of an advantage player is defined by a certain convergence of values.

Ok, let's see.. It's been taking a lot of elbow grease for me to learn this stuff. Why not spend the time studying for another computer certification? Hummm... probably make as much money, or more, doing that. But it wouldn't be as fun.

Learn how to play Scrabble really well? Uh, well that would satisfy the part of my brain that bought all those "Mighty Brain Teasers" books. A bit like mastubation, though. Counting "X"'s doesn't pay for plane fare to Vegas. Feels good, but no tangible reward.

Hey, how about if I spend the time in strip clubs? The ol' Id will certainly be appeased. But wait... I'm wasting my time here. I've just tucked all of my money and the left side of my brain snugly into that chicks bikini strap!

It seems there are many facets to the psych of an advantage player. Asthetic, financial, and even superficial. We all start with some element that draws us toward adavtage play, and aquire the rest.

-Felix
 
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ZOD

Well-Known Member
Re: Incidentally....

Well said. There is the game of "casino blackjack", and then there is "advantage blackjack". I prefer the latter.

ZOD
 
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phantom007

Well-Known Member
YOU ARE ALL WRONG!

If it was an even game, you would still be playing. I would (for comps). And you would too!

I love the game. You do too!

Now, if there were no Comps...maybe, maybe not.

But we do love the game.
 
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Felix Rue-de-Guerre

Well-Known Member
Re: YOU ARE ALL WRONG!

Yes, I love the game.
And if the comps included a chick, a .5% cashback bonus and an evening in Michael Persinger's God helmet. I would play an even odds game.
Six months ago I would have agreed with you whole-heartedly. Now, only half heartedly.

I guess you really can never go back. Those certianly were the good 'ol days... cough, cough... weren't they!

- Felix
 
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