players at a table preference ?

[glovesetc]

Is there any statistical evidence playing heads up against a dealer or with a certain number of players at the table - such as you and one / two/ three/ or full table in a 8 deck shoe , Peek,NS, dss17? Just curious - ty in advance as always .

 

[Sonny]

An Advantage Player will generally want to play with as few other players as possible so that he can play very quickly. A basic strategy player will want exactly the opposite.

-Sonny-

 

[jack.jackson]

Is there any statistical evidence playing heads up against a dealer or with a certain number of players at the table - such as you and one / two/ three/ or full table in a 8 deck shoe , Peek,NS, dss17? Just curious - ty in advance as always .

A bs player will have more of an advantage with a full table especially in single in double deck games when he doubles because he'll be drawing a card out of deeper dealt deck. Plus the dealer will be stiffed more the further in the deck he goes. This is why progressions "would" be more likely to work with fuller tables.

When im counting i prefer heads up play, so i get more hands per hour, but when doing so, im more conservative about doubling and betting especially early in the game.

Of course this question will always be vexed!

 

[Sonny]

A bs player will have more of an advantage with a full table especially in single in double deck games when he doubles because he'll be drawing a card out of deeper dealt deck.

For a BS player the depth of the deal will not matter. The average disadvantage will be the same at any point in the deck/shoe. There is no reason for a BS player to think that the big cards are more likely to come out at the end of the deck/shoe.

Plus the dealer will be stiffed more the further in the deck he goes.

Why would you think that?

-Sonny-

 

[jack.jackson]

For a BS player the depth of the deal will not matter. The average disadvantage will be the same at any point in the deck/shoe. There is no reason for a BS player to think that the big cards are more likely to come out at the end of the deck/shoe.



Why would you think that?

-Sonny-

Actually, i think i remember reading this in playing BJAB by L.R about ten years ago. Maybe somebody can verify this qoute.

Also when i play 2d and theres about 1/2 deck left it seems like the dealer gets stiffed more often. Ever since i read that in his book ive been watching for it ever since. Just like i notice the dealer gets more twentys early in a shoe.

About the number of players.

Let me use a extreme example to illustrate my reasoning.

Lets say your standing in the middle of two tables. The one on your right has one player. The one on your left has twenty-five players at it.
Lets also say its the beginning of a 2 deck game and you count the cards and both tables. Now, on the first round to the table to your right the single player gets an 11vsT and the count is 0.
Now, on the table to your left the dealer deals to all 25 players, only to be left with 1 deck when finishing. Coincidentaly the first player also gets an 11vsT and the count also happens to be 0.

Q: Is it not true that the player to the left has a better chance of catching
a ten than the player to the right?

 

[TENNBEAR]

Actually, i think i remember reading this in playing BJAB by L.R about ten years ago. Maybe somebody can verify this qoute.

Also when i play 2d and theres about 1/2 deck left it seems like the dealer gets stiffed more often. Ever since i read that in his book ive been watching for it ever since. Just like i notice the dealer gets more twentys early in a shoe.

About the number of players.

Let me use a extreme example to illustrate my reasoning.

Lets say your standing in the middle of two tables. The one on your right has one player. The one on your left has twenty-five players at it.
Lets also say its the beginning of a 2 deck game and you count the cards and both tables. Now, on the first round to the table to your right the single player gets an 11vsT and the count is 0.
Now, on the table to your left the dealer deals to all 25 players, only to be left with 1 deck when finishing. Coincidentaly the first player also gets an 11vsT and the count also happens to be 0.

Q: Is it not true that the player to the left has a better chance of catching
a ten than the player to the right?

It is not true, a randomly shuffled shoe is just that, randomly shuffled. If the high cards were more frequent at the middle and bottom of each shuffle, then I would be getting a positive count more often, and not play so many negative counts. Therefore I would be making more money if that was true.

 

[sabre]

Q: Is it not true that the player to the left has a better chance of catching
a ten than the player to the right?

It is not true.

 

[Sonny]

Also when i play 2d and theres about 1/2 deck left it seems like the dealer gets stiffed more often…Just like i notice the dealer gets more twentys early in a shoe.

But those are just observations, not facts. That math will show otherwise.

Q: Is it not true that the player to the left has a better chance of catching a ten than the player to the right?

It is not true because both tables have an equal number of tens per deck. Let’s look some examples to analyze this:

1) What is the probability of getting a ten off the top of a single-deck?

2) What is the probability of getting a ten off the top of a six-deck shoe?

3) What is the probability of getting a ten off the top of a 1,000-deck shoe?

The probabilities are the same since the ten densities are the same. That is why the advantage at any TC is pretty much the same anywhere in the shoe.

Now let’s think about the overall probabilities that happen deeper in the decks:

Start with two decks of shuffled cards.

1) What is the probability of the top card being a ten?

2) Deal out 52 cards face down without looking at them. Now what is the probability that the top card will be a ten?

3) Deal out the rest of the cards face down until you get to the last card. What is the probability of the last card being a ten?

It doesn’t matter how deep you are, the overall probabilities are the same. That is why you should not expect to get more twenties early in the game or to get stiffed more often deeper in the game.

-Sonny-

 

[Cardcounter]

Do you use hand interaction?

If you use hand interaction than you will have a better chance of winning at a full table if you don't your chances of winning are the same. Of course if you play with a disadvantage the more hands you play the more likely you are to lose. Hand interaction is when somebody else doubles for less and you say wait a minute let me go partners with you and you toss him $10 to double down with him. If he wins you get $20 if he loses that you lose the $10. The other way is by going partners on a splits, which is slitly more complicated.

 

[Kasi]

For a BS player the depth of the deal will not matter. The average disadvantage will be the same at any point in the deck/shoe. There is no reason for a BS player to think that the big cards are more likely to come out at the end of the deck/shoe.-Sonny-

Almost seems like a starting point for discussing the "floating advantage" lol.

That seems to say all TC's of +2, or whatever, are not equal at different points in the shoe and that TC 0 is worth more with 2 decks left in a 6D game than it is off the top of a 2D game.

Just causing trouble lol.

 

[sagefr0g]

Is there any statistical evidence playing heads up against a dealer or with a certain number of players at the table - such as you and one / two/ three/ or full table in a 8 deck shoe , Peek,NS, dss17? Just curious - ty in advance as always .

another reason that counters like to play one on one as opposed to a crowded table is that more players at a table in essence has a similar effect to decreased penetration while less players has the opposite affect. you end up with less opportunities to bet up when the count gets good when there are more players at the table. but it is good to have those players at the table with you when the count is negative or zero as then those players are eating poor cards.
cvbj and cvcx can provide graphs showing expectation with respect to penetration. i suppose one could exptrapolate such information regarding player density at the tables, or just examine opposing sims of one on one tables as opposed to full tables ect.

 

[jack.jackson]

But those are just observations, not facts. That math will show otherwise.



It is not true because both tables have an equal number of tens per deck. Let’s look some examples to analyze this:

1) What is the probability of getting a ten off the top of a single-deck?

2) What is the probability of getting a ten off the top of a six-deck shoe?

3) What is the probability of getting a ten off the top of a 1,000-deck shoe?

The probabilities are the same since the ten densities are the same. That is why the advantage at any TC is pretty much the same anywhere in the shoe.

Now let’s think about the overall probabilities that happen deeper in the decks:

Start with two decks of shuffled cards.

1) What is the probability of the top card being a ten?

2) Deal out 52 cards face down without looking at them. Now what is the probability that the top card will be a ten?

3) Deal out the rest of the cards face down until you get to the last card. What is the probability of the last card being a ten?

It doesn’t matter how deep you are, the overall probabilities are the same. That is why you should not expect to get more twenties early in the game or to get stiffed more often deeper in the game.

-Sonny-

I was actually tryin to sneak this past you while you were in vegas this weekend. But your like tryin to catch a fly out of thin air.

By the way how was your trip? Lost the farm did'nt ya.

In any event, at least my girlfriend still thinks im stiffed more the deeper in i go!:whip: