Players card detail

[JJP]

Does anyone know exactly what detail the pit boss has on a player who uses a card? Obviously they can track dates one played, and they have their perceived win/loss net for the player. But what about bet spread? Do they know right away if Player A spread from $10 to $100 last time and if the rise correlated with the count? Or is that something only surveillance can determine by going thru tapes?

I was wondering if one could "dirty up their form". No, not intentionally losing cover plays which I believe are a waste and don't fool anyone. Let's say player A has a big winning day at Casino A. The next time he/she goes to play there again, they flat bet. They still count to Wong out of negative counts, but they don't raise their bet on positive counts. The reason is the next time they go there, the detail would show they didn't raise, and were likely just a Basic Strategy player. Could that buy them a free roll for a while next visit or would it just be a waste of time?

 

[Stevel96a1]

you seem to be knew here, so i will go easy on ya, first of all learn the cover playes YES ALL OF THEM. what good is using card counting if you get banned? 2nd play no more than 45min
dont you dare use a puny 1-8 spread use the 1-20 atleast for godsake have a good act. do not even go near a casino without 5 grand in your pocket. i hope you have software to give you feedback on your skills most important do ask for a players card, if your act is good and your cover plays are on point you should not have a problem with longevity, i recommend you the K-O count for starts upon all else play starting out with a semi full table otherwise goodluck your gonna need it!

btw losing is a resounding no on cover ask any pro or semi pro and he/she will reply with yes i got tap on the shoulder after losing X amount

also never ever buy in more than 400, you should buy in 200 maybe 300, the house sees you dig in your pockets for more cash can't hurt early in

 

[JJP]

OK, first off, I'm not bringing $5k to the casino. If I wanted to, I could. I have a full time job and am not doing this full time. 1 to 20 spread? Not yet. Not even close. That's not to say it won't ever happen, but I'm not ready to be spreading that much. I've also been a sports bettor for 20 years and it took a LONG time to ramp up bets. I do not believe in over betting bankroll. I think there's a number of successful blackjack players who benefited from positive variance when they started, overbet their bankroll, and fell ass backwards into being good. Yes, I do use the QFIT software and practice almost every day, to some extent. My basic strategy is very strong and the counting is coming along to the point where I can talk to other players and the dealer. Every now and then a quick dealer scoops up the cards real quick but I've improved in that area. I usually buy in for $200-$250. I don't plan on using a card forever, but I don't have a crystal ball. Two years from now I may not be playing. Or I may be playing for big stakes. I do enjoy the game a lot and like practicing. I suspect I will be quite good, but I'm not running out betting 2 x 500 until I not only can count perfectly, but know all the nuances of the game that one can only get from experience.

 

[Stevel96a1]

its really hard to grind out an egde on those 6-8 deckers with a 1-8 spread assuming you are playing s17/LS even with that you are still breaking even for the most part atleast consider a 1-12 or 1-15

 

[ZenKinG]

JJP you say you bet sports for 20 years? Were you a sharp and did well or just did it for fun and lost a bit?

Regarding blackjack, cover plays like you said are a waste. Theyre also expensive especially when trying to build a roll. When first starting out and even later on, you should always just play aggressively and stop being so paranoid. Get the EV in. Split 10s when you have to. Double A9, wong in and out aggressively, etc. People get backed off because their bets are moving with the count and after big wins which result in a tape review. No cover play will save you from a backoff. You might trick a pit boss here or there to stop watching you in the moment, but after any big wins or consistent wins, they will do a tape review and see you moving your money with the count and the inevitable backoff will occur.

If youre not betting at least 2x250 as your max, the words 'cover plays' shouldnt even be whispered out of your mouth. Actually those words should never be mentioned regardless because theyre simply useless for longevity. What you lose in EV by doing cover plays doesnt offset the extended longevity. It's one of the most over rated topics regarding card counting. Youll also be betting small early on in your career, so your session wins wont even make the pit boss flinch, so just pound away. Also, learn to rathole, but don't rathole black chips because they are monitored very closely. Only time you should be ratholing blacks is when there are other black chip bettors at the table so then they won't know who actually has a hold of them. It becomes an art once you get the hang of it. If you buy in for a total by the end of the shoe of say 600 and you have a stack of green of 800 in front of you make sure you color up 500 or so and keep the 8-12 green chips in your pocket. Pit wont be tracking the green and will think you lost 100 for the session when in fact you won 200. That's the idea.

Also if youre gonna play shoe games, you better be backcounting and wonging out aggressively. Lots of people dont have the dedication to backcount, but if you want to play these 6-8 deckers, it's a must and also has the added benefit of shortening N-zero and raising your EV. If you play off the top heads-up on 6-8 deckers, you better be wonging out aggressively at -1 as well. Wonging out at -1 basically doubles your net effective spread. A 1-12 or 1-16 play all spread is sufficient to beat a 6-8 deck game on average, but if wonging out at -1, a 1-12 or 1-16 spread is the same as using a 1-24 or 1-32. That's how powerful wonging out is.

If you dont want to backcount, search out good pen double deck games. Keep in mind wonging out aggressively doesnt work too well with double deck because you will stick out like a sore thumb and those games are watched a lot more closely and lower amounts are also not tolerated that well because double deck is a lot more vulnerable even with lower bets.

Good luck. Read as much as you can, get software and start red chipping to get some practice in. Also get ready for the grind of your life. I recommend getting a job while playing on the side until you have at least 30k liquid to use for blackjack outside of expenses

 

[KewlJ]

Regarding blackjack, cover plays like you said are a waste....

I feel the need to compliment you on a good post, Zenking. While I don't agree with everything, like splitting 10's and doubling A9, (just creates too much heat), I agree with most and more importantly some useful information that should be helpful to the OP.

No mention of chinese rigged playing cards, how the whole industry is corrupt and rigged ASM's. Makes me think some of your other posts are just born out of frustration, which is ok.....this game can be frustrating. I applaud you sharing your experiences in a more positive manner that might benefit some others.

 

[Ryemo]

I feel the need to compliment you on a good post, Zenking. While I don't agree with everything, like splitting 10's and doubling A9, (just creates too much heat), I agree with most and more importantly some useful information that should be helpful to the OP.

No mention of chinese rigged playing cards, how the whole industry is corrupt and rigged ASM's. Makes me think some of your other posts are just born out of frustration, which is ok.....this game can be frustrating. I applaud you sharing your experiences in a more positive manner that might beefit some others.

Ditto

 

[JJP]

JJP you say you bet sports for 20 years? Were you a sharp and did well or just did it for fun and lost a bit?

Regarding blackjack, cover plays like you said are a waste. Theyre also expensive especially when trying to build a roll. When first starting out and even later on, you should always just play aggressively and stop being so paranoid. Get the EV in. Split 10s when you have to. Double A9, wong in and out aggressively, etc. People get backed off because their bets are moving with the count and after big wins which result in a tape review. No cover play will save you from a backoff. You might trick a pit boss here or there to stop watching you in the moment, but after any big wins or consistent wins, they will do a tape review and see you moving your money with the count and the inevitable backoff will occur.

If youre not betting at least 2x250 as your max, the words 'cover plays' shouldnt even be whispered out of your mouth. Actually those words should never be mentioned regardless because theyre simply useless for longevity. What you lose in EV by doing cover plays doesnt offset the extended longevity. It's one of the most over rated topics regarding card counting. Youll also be betting small early on in your career, so your session wins wont even make the pit boss flinch, so just pound away. Also, learn to rathole, but don't rathole black chips because they are monitored very closely. Only time you should be ratholing blacks is when there are other black chip bettors at the table so then they won't know who actually has a hold of them. It becomes an art once you get the hang of it. If you buy in for a total by the end of the shoe of say 600 and you have a stack of green of 800 in front of you make sure you color up 500 or so and keep the 8-12 green chips in your pocket. Pit wont be tracking the green and will think you lost 100 for the session when in fact you won 200. That's the idea.

Also if youre gonna play shoe games, you better be backcounting and wonging out aggressively. Lots of people dont have the dedication to backcount, but if you want to play these 6-8 deckers, it's a must and also has the added benefit of shortening N-zero and raising your EV. If you play off the top heads-up on 6-8 deckers, you better be wonging out aggressively at -1 as well. Wonging out at -1 basically doubles your net effective spread. A 1-12 or 1-16 play all spread is sufficient to beat a 6-8 deck game on average, but if wonging out at -1, a 1-12 or 1-16 spread is the same as using a 1-24 or 1-32. That's how powerful wonging out is.

If you dont want to backcount, search out good pen double deck games. Keep in mind wonging out aggressively doesnt work too well with double deck because you will stick out like a sore thumb and those games are watched a lot more closely and lower amounts are also not tolerated that well because double deck is a lot more vulnerable even with lower bets.

Good luck. Read as much as you can, get software and start red chipping to get some practice in. Also get ready for the grind of your life. I recommend getting a job while playing on the side until you have at least 30k liquid to use for blackjack outside of expenses

OK, re: my original post. It's clear it would be a waste of time. You and Steve have made that clear. I do Wong out aggressively, but need to still work on the back counting.

I would consider myself a sharp. I work very hard at sports betting, and while I got in about 12 hours of blackjack in Vegas two weekends ago, the main purpose of the trip was several big wagers on MLB season win totals. If you bet sports at all, the season win totals represent the most EV. A number of books won't offer them because they get killed.

One very solid EV event this weekend: the Rainbow Six mandatory payoff tomorrow at Gulfstream. This is a pic 6 that makes a consolation payment when there is more than one winner, and pays in full with one winner. But at the end of the meet, the bet must pay off in full, regardless of the number of winners. The difference between this bet and most Pic 6s is the tickets only cost 20 cents each, whereas most Pic 6s are of the $2 or $1 variety. So a bettor with a smallish bankroll has no excuse to spread deep tomorrow. Usually the GP Rainbow 6 pool gets into 8 figures for the mandatory payoff.

 

[Dummy]

Regarding blackjack, cover plays like you said are a waste.

A lot of how valuable any form of cover is depends on your style of play. There are grinders that try to milk things over the long haul to slash and burn players that expect a quick backoffs everywhere they go. The value of cover depends on what it gets you in return for the cost. The trouble is few understand the cost and few understand that the value differs depending on your style of play. For those that try never to get backed off by staying within casino tolerances cover is very important. But you must understand the costs and benefits to use it. As usual the one size fits all answer is quite bad advice for some and the best advice for others.

 

[xengrifter]

1 to 20 spread? Not yet. Not even close. ... I do not believe in over betting bankroll.

What does large spread have to do with over-betting? How are the two related?