Playing negative counts?

[blackchipjim]

Morning Gentlemen, I wonder if anyone can tell me if they had seen somewhere how to play negative counts. I know it goes against the basis for counting but I remember reading that a player can use this to his advantage. I would imangine the bets would be low and plays limited. I was curious if anyone out there uses this counts to their advantage? blackchipjim

 

[Preston]

keep the bets low and don't be too mad when you lose with a 20 to a five card 21.

LEarn some indexes. Look at it from this perspective. The more negative the count, the more likely you are going to draw a small card when you have a stiff.

It still is -EV. But you would be hitting more 12's and 13's.

 

[ChefJJ]

Keep it low, and remember, you can still win with negative counts.

 

[supercoolmancool]

Keep it low, and remember, you can still win with negative counts.

Why do you recommend remembering that?

 

[ChefJJ]

Why do you recommend remembering that?

I don't know, why not? Haven't you won in negative counts before? Obviously its not an ideal situation, but if you can't wong in and out...why just sit there and say "I'm gonna lose because the count is at -3"? Positive thinking man, it doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of beans, but why not?

Good luck

 

[ScottH]

I don't know, why not? Haven't you won in negative counts before? Obviously its not an ideal situation, but if you can't wong in and out...why just sit there and say "I'm gonna lose because the count is at -3"? Positive thinking man, it doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of beans, but why not?

Good luck

I have a better idea. Instead of saying "I'm gonna lose because the count is at -3" you could say "Shit, the count is -3... I REALLY gotta take a piss!" There are times when it's too hard to wong in, but wonging out is A CAKEWALK (if you know what I mean! lol jk). They can stop you from wonging in, but they cant stop you from wonging out, and there are a million and one reasons to wong out without looking like a card counter.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Morning Gentlemen, I wonder if anyone can tell me if they had seen somewhere how to play negative counts. I know it goes against the basis for counting but I remember reading that a player can use this to his advantage. I would imangine the bets would be low and plays limited. I was curious if anyone out there uses this counts to their advantage? blackchipjim

Well sure, all counts (especially balanced counts) have worthwhile negative indices that can take a little piece out of the house edge. If you are playing a lot of SD and DD where normally you don't leave the table for negative counts they're not a waste of time to learn. It feels good to hit 15 vs 2.

If you are playing shoe, the negative indices have some value but nothing even close to the value of simply not playing those hands.

 

[ChefJJ]

I have a better idea. Instead of saying "I'm gonna lose because the count is at -3" you could say "Shit, the count is -3... I REALLY gotta take a piss!" There are times when it's too hard to wong in, but wonging out is A CAKEWALK (if you know what I mean! lol jk). They can stop you from wonging in, but they cant stop you from wonging out, and there are a million and one reasons to wong out without looking like a card counter.

That's very true...I'm glad you brought that up! All those free drinks can sure fit into the "gotta piss when the count is horrid" move. Nice one.

Good luck

 

[ScottH]

That's very true...I'm glad you brought that up! All those free drinks can sure fit into the "gotta piss when the count is horrid" move. Nice one.

Good luck

Yeah, you can even mention to the pit and dealers that all those free drinks are making you have to go to the bathroom alot, and then you can stumble away to the bathroom! I like that idea a lot...

 

[blackchipjim]

negative count logic

I geuss I should ask this question differently. Does anyone know of or use a betting strategy in negative counts. I read about a player that uses counter basic strategy at this point, of course he uses it for camoflage. I'm also aware of the negative index plays that some of us have talked about. I wondered if anyone has done any sims on or if it is even possible. If a 8d shoe with 80% pen is steadily going down at what point is the shoe at it's greatest disadvantage. I know I'm going to get trashed for asking. blackchipjim:laugh:

 

[zengrifter]

I geuss I should ask this question differently. Does anyone know of or use a betting strategy in negative counts. I read about a player that uses counter basic strategy at this point, of course he uses it for camoflage. I'm also aware of the negative index plays that some of us have talked about. I wondered if anyone has done any sims on or if it is even possible. If a 8d shoe with 80% pen is steadily going down at what point is the shoe at it's greatest disadvantage. I know I'm going to get trashed for asking. blackchipjim:laugh:

1. CounterBS is for POSITIVE counts. 2. There is NO "betting strategy in negative counts", except to bet small or zero. zg

 

[blackjackmarc]

I'm far from a BJ or counting expert - still trying to master it but besides reducing my bet in the neg - this is also when I'll break a few of "the book's" rules - most often things like taking hits when it says I should not. If the prospect of getting dealt a smaller card is out there I will take some chances on it - but again - just with minimum bets.

 

[ihate17]

My betting strategy

I geuss I should ask this question differently. Does anyone know of or use a betting strategy in negative counts. I read about a player that uses counter basic strategy at this point, of course he uses it for camoflage. I'm also aware of the negative index plays that some of us have talked about. I wondered if anyone has done any sims on or if it is even possible. If a 8d shoe with 80% pen is steadily going down at what point is the shoe at it's greatest disadvantage. I know I'm going to get trashed for asking. blackchipjim:laugh:

This can not be used by all here because it is based on having a minimum bet that is above the table minimum.
Besides the use of negative indices if I am staying and not wonging out, I generally am playing on tables where my usual minimum bet might be 3 or much more times the table minimum. So, if I am planning on spreading a double deck game from $75-$500 and it is a $25 table, I can drop down to $25. Or a $10 shoe table where I am going from $50-$500, and just drop down to a $10 or $25 bet. It could be classified as a 50-1 spread, but it is generally only near the end of a shoe and as I have explained to a casino person a few times, "this shoe is so bad, I really should not bet at all but guess I am just kind of marking my spot till the next shoe begins, you know, new shoe, new hope."
The same negative situation early in the shoe and I will wong out or if it is a dealer who presents reason for my return, then it is a restroom break or something similar.

But if you are a green chip player and want to play all in a negative situation, if you find yourself on a $5 or $10 table, dropping your bet, will drop the total of the -EV more than indices, but nothing beats not playing

ihate17

 

[jack.jackson]

1. CounterBS is for POSITIVE counts. 2. There is NO "betting strategy in negative counts", except to bet small or zero. zg

Hey zen,

Have you read or heard of carlsons "steaming minium bets" he actually says to place a avg. of a minium bet instead of just a flat bet? Is he on acid, or does this really provide adequate cover?

 

[sagefr0g]

Morning Gentlemen, I wonder if anyone can tell me if they had seen somewhere how to play negative counts. I know it goes against the basis for counting but I remember reading that a player can use this to his advantage. I would imangine the bets would be low and plays limited. I was curious if anyone out there uses this counts to their advantage? blackchipjim

Bojack alluded to this situation in the post below:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=17315&postcount=3

i never could figure what methodology was called for to achieve it. some speculated that it would require shuffle tracking.

 

[21forme]

I love those "draped in secrecy posts..."

 

[EasyRhino]

Oh I remember that post, I'm pretty sure that's talking about shuffle tracking.

 

[Mimosine]

for neg counts i keep playing until i lose 2-3 hands in a row or cumulative - it then becomes easy to wong out with some saying about needing a new shoe or new cards. i've sat through TC -2/-3 shoes before (not really knowing any better) and have won hand after hand. if i'm in an almost playall environment (i.e. packed casino) i just keep playing until i'm down 1 or 2 units for the neg count. otherwise i wait it out until the count improves or until it is shuffle time.

+Std. Dev. exists in neg counts too.... but it is a risky venture.

 

[bj bob]

Playing negative counts

Morning Gentlemen, I wonder if anyone can tell me if they had seen somewhere how to play negative counts. I know it goes against the basis for counting but I remember reading that a player can use this to his advantage. I would imangine the bets would be low and plays limited. I was curious if anyone out there uses this counts to their advantage? blackchipjim

What the esteemed members of our forum are trying to tell you in a nutshell:

1) Betting strategy for all negative counts

A) Hold crotch and wimper towards mens' room.
B) Take your mandatory and mysterious cell phone call.
C) Bet table minimum.

2) Playing stategy for negative counts.

A) Learn negative indices for your counting system. If you're playing a shoe game, you can get away with the I-18 and several surrender indices, but their overall effect will not be as important to your EV as in pitch games. Zg and other over-achieving neophytes suggest about 50 or so indices for pitch.

To sum it all up. There are two different aspects of BJ, one is betting strategy, the other is playing strategy. Don't cofuse the two.

 

[biggamejames]

Yeah, you can even mention to the pit and dealers that all those free drinks are making you have to go to the bathroom alot, and then you can stumble away to the bathroom! I like that idea a lot...

Some of you make it seem like wonging out is that easy!!! IT IS NOT!!!

First off you dont want to be drinking while gambling at the same time. Thats already a given for most players. Alcohol does truly affect your decision making process. You can opt for that pepsi with ice, but you can only drink so much of it to convince the pit crew that its causing you to stand up every 10 minutes. (because in SD and DD you will see several negative decks in a short span of time.)

Fine may be you can carry your drink to the bathroom and pour out the alcohol, replace it with water (thats if you are drinking something like absolute with sprite) But after getting up the 10ths time in 2 hours, in a negative count, the next time you come back to your seat you will find Bilbo Casino Bobbie waiting for you with that stupid smile, about to ask you to follow him out the door:cool2:

There are not enough excuses in the world that would explain away why you only get up to piss when the count is negative. That may fool a few on the floor (if any) but the eye in the sky will catch you very easily:whip:


What i normally do is wait for the really grossly negative counts and i wong out of those. Like once every 30 or 40 minutes. With some moderately negative counts, especially with the pit boss watching, i will increase my bet or flat bet through the entire deck at a medium size bet. (ie, higher than your lowest bet but still just under 50% of what may be my max)..

I have been known to put out a max bet on a neutral count to about -3 especially if i just realized a great postive count and beat the **** out of the house the previous deck. (won some lost some, its never really )

Now if you are playing multidecks then i guess it would be easier to wong out...BUt SD and DD are not that easy to wong out of!