Plus, minus and all that jazz.

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Hinoon

Well-Known Member
Hey there all.

So, after a good few weeks of really drilling on my counting (just using +/-, nothing fancy like Reverse Revere with a Double ZenUston side count.), I'm pretty speedy. bju21.com's drill really helped me pick up the pace, and I recommend it to any of the newbies out there who find themselves stuck at a deskjob where flipping an actual deck of cards would cause trouble. I practice while I'm on the phone, to mimic the myriad of distractions a casino holds.

So, with my new-found confidence in my abilities to count in increments of 1, I've decided to take the plunge and try to practice BS with the count.

My main trouble is that if I get distracted, I "flip" the count. -6 becomes 6, and I'm screwed. I've caught myself doing it, but by the time it registers, it's slowed me down and my pacing is all off. Is this common? Are there any mental tricks you use to remember which side of the coin you're on? I've been thinking about some physical device...clenching my fist on negative counts (perhaps something less agressive), but am sure that stuff like that would eventually get noticed by the heavies in the heavens.

Is this yet another plateau to overcome with practicepracticepractice? I never had this trouble with purely keeping a running count, so clearly it's the addition of the BS data that's causing the trouble.

Ok, back to the grind.

Thanks for any advice.
 
L

learning to count

Well-Known Member
PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE...YOU MUST HAVE BS DOWN FIRST...IF YOU ARE NOT BELOW 15 SECONDS ON YOUR ONE,TWO AND THREE CARD PILL DRILLS THEN KEEP WORKING AT IT...THE LAST THING IS THE ZEN MODE DEEP CONCENTRATION THAT COMES WITH PRACTICE PRACTICE AND MORE PRACTICE. IT WILL COME.
 
T

The Mayor

Well-Known Member
When I started, having a bit too much to say in my head with "negative 6", I would say "tif 6". That speeded it up quite a bit. I also tried colors, and different languages to help recall which was which.

Now it is so second nature to recall positve or negative, that I count both as positive values. That is when I am at -6 I say "6" and just somehow know it is negative. Weird.

The value of practice cannot be overstated.

--Mayor
 
I

ivy kid

Member
Also, I'm not sure how you are counting, but let me tell you what works for me.

You said you sometimes invert your court, from -6 to 6. How do you count negative numbers in your head? Do you say "minus 6?" or "negative 6?" I always say "N6" to kill a syllable and wasted thought. The "N" stands for negative, of course. So when I'm counting I think "N4, N3, N4, N5," etc. The increased speed and "N" designation makes it a lot tougher to invert the count out of either confusion from counting too fast or from simply forgetting what side of the number line you are on.
 
C

Casual Counter

Member
HiNoon,

As a fellow newb, I'm acutely aware of the issue. I agree with our superiors above that practice is the key to minimizing all errors.

Most of the time I don't need to attempt to keep track of the count between hands. It depends on my mental state while playing. If I'm not mentally up to full speed, I may need to start physically logging it, or if I'm stuck at a 6 Decker with a full table, lots of cards out and slow play (long interval between the end of each hand with lots of counting to do in between).

There are plenty of simple, subtle ways to keep a physical reminder of the count. As long as you use a body part that is not in view of the eye; then you don't have to worry about surveillance. I won't detail any of my own tricks here, so as not to tip off the trolls. But you're on the right track.

In the meantime, we can both keep practicing until we don't have to worry about it anymore.

CC

P.S. I also modified my system for DD games by raising it to a point where I won't encounter negative numbers (or will have wonged out long before anyway).
 
H

Hinoon

Well-Known Member
*sigh*

So, what you're all telling me is that there is indeed no rest for the wicked, no easy way out, no simple solution.

Fiiiine.

Yeah, it's funny because what Mayor describes, the innate knowledge of +/- and just logging the number, is something I can do when I'm JUST counting. I know where I am, and it's not a big deal to not have to repeat "negative 2, negative 4," etc. But as soon as I throw in needing to consider the cards against a dealer's card...that "zone" is gone, and I'm back to basics.

I DO say "negative 2" rather than shortening it. I might try N2 instead, but I think I'll end up reverting to the full word. My brain has never done well with that kind of short-cut.

OK, so, back to the grind. I'll tame this sucker yet.

Thanks for the replies!
 
S

Stephen Bauer

Member
I use the Uston APC count for low deck games. A major advantage of using a count that has a seperate Ace side count is that you can do the ace count using phonetics as the tag on. I also Use the N prefix for a negative running count and another ending to denote the Ace count.I count ZoeZah (zero count, Zero aces played). Ah, E, Ou, Da are the first 4 aces. N2Ah (entuah) is pronounced as a single word. You get used to mixing the word sounds to retain the information, and you generally never have to change more than one syllable for the next card. After you have been plying using the phonetics for a while the names become " states " where you know the rules for that state and rarely think about it...the deck starts you are dealt a 10 (N3Za) and a 7 (N1Za). The dealer Has an ace showing for a count of (N1Ah) en-won-a. His hole card turns out to be a eight(Zoe-Ah). You lose. If later on the count is (Fi-Ou) five with three aces played, and you are only starting into the second half of the deck, The five is good but the bet is reduced due to the fact that its already (Ou) aces and it should only be (E) Aces. I find the phonetic tags much easier to use and keep track of than a seperate number count. Entuda tells me the count is negative 2 and 4 aces have been played. I just compare it to the discard tray the index and make my decision. I really like the Uston APC and Ace side count. It has both power and flexiblity.
 
L

learning to count

Well-Known Member
Re: 15 secs isn't necessary, 20-25 will suffice

Pardon my disagreement IMHO 15 seconds and under are important for mastering the game. WIth speed you must have accuracy. THis level of card recognition adds to the overall strength of a players ability to count convert to TC and play the indices. Speed will also enable you to wong with just a glance. Slow abilies will cause you to start looking at very card. Thus is a tell for the PC's. Speed is the third important AP tool. The first is a perfect knowledge and ability to use Basic strategy. The second is being able bet within you BR parameters. Third is of course being able to count and play as if your not counting. Just my oppinion. LTC
 
A

Adam N. Subtractum

Well-Known Member
no disagreement...well kinda ;-)

"Pardon my disagreement IMHO 15 seconds and under are important for mastering the game. WIth speed you must have accuracy."

I would have to agree for the most part, but for Hinoon, a novice, that figure may be discouraging. Its been recommended by almost every author and/or player I've ever heard of that 20-25 seconds will be sufficient for casino play *almost* always.

As for mastering the game, that's kinda tough to quantify. If one truly wanted to "master the game" I propose he would have to be utilizing a modern multi-parameter system, such as T-H Champion or perhaps the Bishop's recently proposed "Headache Count", with extreme proficiency, yet at a speed that wins at a higher rate than even the fastest user of a level II or level I w/ Ace sidecount system under all conditions. To expect to play (or count a deck down) _as fast_ is just not humanly feasible. But I guess I'm nitpicking here. ;-)

ANS
 
L

learning to count

Well-Known Member
Re: no disagreement...well kinda ;-)

Your right mastery of the game probably is Akin to infinity. And excuse me about the minus 15 second rule. From My associations with many counters I have gathered that speed and accuracy were paramount to sucess. I tend to be anal about my skills and I practice BS,indices, card recognition and verite an average an hour a day. When I play I play hard. I really wong a lot and i have seen other wongers who are not able to quickly get the count. After they were able to get thier speed up then the walk and glance technique was easy. I tell every newby that speed takes time and practice. That is the foundation to AP. Practice. Thanks for your insight I have learned a lot. LTC
 
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phantom007

Well-Known Member
Sometimes...

if you lose the "+/-" of the count, just seeing and/or recalling the previous bet level/"ramp" will tell you where you were at. If you were a "purist", you would not even play at neg. decks, which would eliminate a certain % of the confusion.

If you are like the rest, myself included, then tricks such as above may help. When you still draw a total blank, bet low and play Basic Strategy...this will minimize the harm...or take a bathroom break.

Hope this helps.

phantom007.
 
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