Whatsmytotal
Active Member
Bottom line - What is the advantage the player obtains when using a simple Plus Minus counting strategy correctly, betting his money correctly, and varying his basic strategy correctly according to the count?
Plus Minus
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SystemsTrader
Well-Known Member
It depends on many factors, there is no one size fits all advantage. You must consider such things as number of decks, the rules being used, the amount of penetration and the bet spread.
Sonny
Well-Known Member
For a system like Hi-Lo (or just about any similar system) a player can easily get a 1-2% advantage. Using a huge spread or aggressively backcounting might knock that up to 3%. Generally, you should be able to earn 1-3 units per hour for such basic playing.
That may not sound like much, but when you put dollar amounts to those units you start to get some pretty decent money. A green-chipper earning 2 units per hour is making $50/hr.
-Sonny-
That may not sound like much, but when you put dollar amounts to those units you start to get some pretty decent money. A green-chipper earning 2 units per hour is making $50/hr.
-Sonny-
Mikeaber
Well-Known Member
Sonny's generalization is about what I see overall.
Last night, I played a 6D table with $2 to $25 min and maxes. Normal 6-d rules (H17). Using KO, I waited to sit down until the count was in single digits...but only 2 decks had been played! It climbed into "money territory" within a couple of rounds and seemed not to stop. It topped out at +7 and I had played green for most of the time that shoe was dealt. At the end of the shoe, I was ahead by $65...a little over twice my maximum bet. I didn't get a really good shoe the rest of the night and ended up ahead only $20. But that first shoe was sure fun!
Last night, I played a 6D table with $2 to $25 min and maxes. Normal 6-d rules (H17). Using KO, I waited to sit down until the count was in single digits...but only 2 decks had been played! It climbed into "money territory" within a couple of rounds and seemed not to stop. It topped out at +7 and I had played green for most of the time that shoe was dealt. At the end of the shoe, I was ahead by $65...a little over twice my maximum bet. I didn't get a really good shoe the rest of the night and ended up ahead only $20. But that first shoe was sure fun!
Whatsmytotal
Active Member
Ok...
Using Atlantic City rules for Multideck games - what advantage can I expect?- How do I get started? What should my bankroll considerations be? I'm looking to get into the business, and I would appreciate any and all help. Thanks!
Using Atlantic City rules for Multideck games - what advantage can I expect?- How do I get started? What should my bankroll considerations be? I'm looking to get into the business, and I would appreciate any and all help. Thanks!
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
WOW $2 min to $25 max...... i wish i could find a game like that well except for the (H17). about how many tables? bet they are crowded. now i would play a table like that with out regard to a win-stop limit.Mikeaber said:
sorry i just think thats kewl
best regards,
mr fr0g
Automatic Monkey
Banned
All right. First off I'd like you to clarify what you mean by "plus-minus count." (I assume you don't mean the Uston +/-. ) I would recommend you use High-Low or RPC to play those games (which I play myself.) RPC is about 5-10% harder and will make you about 5-10% more money.Whatsmytotal said:
The first things you need to learn are: Basic Strategy, counting, using the count to vary your bets and leave/enter the table, and using the count to vary your play strategy. In that order. There are numerous online resources and people here will help you with that which you don't understand.
The secondary things you need to learn are: deciding which games are best to play and which to avoid, hiding your skills from the casino, dealing with casino abuse and abuse from unskilled players, controlling your psychological state during periods of extreme losing, extreme winning, fatigue, alcohol and other things you will encounter in casinos, protecting your health in that very unhealthy environment, and protecting yourself and your bankroll from criminals and con artists.
If you are going to be playing full time with no other source of income, your bankroll requirements will be very high. I would recommend at least 1000 times your desired hourly income, in cash, at your disposal. If you want to play part-time for extra cash (which is what almost everyone here does) your bankroll can be whatever you want it to be, recommend set it at whatever you can afford to replace within a reasonable amount of time with your steady income. Your risk of bankruptcy playing any game with any bankroll is calculable.
Whatsmytotal
Active Member
I wanted to learn the RPC first but Revere recommends that I first learn his Revere Plus Minus count to familiarize myself with the counting techniques and concentration.Automatic Monkey said:
I know BS flawlessly, and I am practicing counting and I am learning to incorporate the BS variations based on the count. I want to practice the Plus Minus counting strategy in the casino setting to get thoroughly comfortable before learning the RPC.
What about Revere's advice about using 25% of your bankroll as a playing bankroll and not using more than 30 units per session, win or lose? Also what do you think about his advice about how many units to bet based on the count?Automatic Monkey said:
Thanks.
Automatic Monkey
Banned
Revere Plus Minus is just High-Low. So, you might want to get Wong's Professional Blackjack which details the count and is more suited to the modern game. Either count will work just fine, no need to sweat learning RPC for now.Whatsmytotal said:
Also you might want to take the Gamesmaster's High-Low course. It's free.
http://bj21.com/gamemaster/gamemasterclassicsindex.shtml
Disregard. That book was not written for AC shoe blackjack. What you really need to work out spreads and bankroll requirements is a simulator, like the one from Qfit. That way you can adjust your spread to fit the game you are playing, your style of play and your risk tolerance.Whatsmytotal said:
Mikeaber
Well-Known Member
You wouldn't like this casino....I don't either but it convenient. Oklahoma and it's ante on every hand kill this as a "store." They have four blackjack tables but I've never seen more than three open at any one time. Usually, there are just two open or maybe one. They limit the table to 6 players though there are seven spots. I've taught a lot of players how to play the game down there....including one of their dealers! I've not started teaching KO down there though....just Basic Strategy :laugh:sagefr0g said:WOW $2 min to $25 max...... i wish i could find a game like that well except for the (H17). about how many tables? bet they are crowded. now i would play a table like that with out regard to a win-stop limit.
sorry i just think thats kewl
best regards,
mr fr0g
Now, in Kansas City, Missouri, there are two Casinos with $3 tables and $200 max bets with no ante! One of them (Isle of Capri) has horrible pen on their 6-deck so I don't play there. AmeriStar has three $3 tables with rules that let you play two spots for 2x the minimum and three spots for 5x the minimum. Pen is generally good at 75%+ there. The only bad rule they have is H17. I have never been questioned with $3 to $50 spreads there though I usually top out at $30.
Whatsmytotal
Active Member
Which simulator should I download from Qfit?Automatic Monkey said:
Also, how do you suggest I actually count using Hi-Lo? Is it easier to count each card individually as it comes out of the shoe or is it better to count them in bunches of 2 or 3?
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
hey whatsmy total i use hi/lo and i think it is fantastic. as far as how to count in the casino you'll find your 'stride' that works for you. you will probably end up performing the count in several different styles or approachs. i normally count up the RC as the dealer flips out each card to each player. i tend to be watching for cards that are dealt out one after another that cancel each other out or add up to zero. then when several cards come out that don't cancel each other out i add them to the RC. then as far as the true count goes well i know that while there is less than or equal to one deck dealt that an RC of 5,10,15,20 is a point to watch , then if two decks are dealt out i know that an RC of 4, 8, 12, 16, 20 are points to watch for, if three decks are dealt out i know that an RC of 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 are points to watch for ect., ect. i mean you don't really have to memorize and keep those points in mind you can just divide your RC by the remaining decks to be dealt to figure out your TC but i think it's helpful to have those figures in the back of your mind so your tipped of as to when an advantage is about to present. well i play mostly six deck and those points are the appropriate ones to keep in mind. for eight deck you'd be watching for an RC of 7, 14, 21, 28 at one deck dealt, RC of 6, 12, 18, 24, 30 at two decks dealt, RC of 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 at three decks dealt, RC of 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24 at four decks dealtWhatsmytotal said:
ect. ect.
when you practice counting at home i suggest that you do it three ways during each practice session. i practice flipping two cards at a time counting as i go through one deck. i do that twice. then i'll count down a deck by flipping just one card at a time. (thats a little harder but i think its good to practice it) . then i'll take the deck and fan it out across the table in two or three strips. then i'll count down those fanned out cards. that a really good method as it is very similar to what you see in the casino.
also you should go out and buy enough cards to set up one deck, two deck, three decks, four decks, five decks, six decks and seven decks stacked. that way you can keep those stacks sitting around so that you can practice stacked deck size estimation.
hope this helps.
best regards,
mr fr0g
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Whatsmytotal
Active Member
I thought that there is no use of the True Count in the Hi-Lo system...
Whatsmytotal
Active Member
In the chapter on the Plus Minus counting system in BJAAB, there is no discussion at all about a true count. The true count is first mentioned in relation to the RPC.
KO is an unbalanced system that is easy to learn, after you mastered a counting system, switching to another, more advanced system is really not difficult. Most of your other questions can be answered in your reading, assuming that you realize that you will need to read several recommended books on blackjack, many avalible at this website. CVBJ is highly recommended practice software for home practice. The little amount of money you spend for books and practice software will be the best investment you will make if you are serious. Practice in the casino is limited to just backcounting, you can stand all day long if you can and practice counting for free, this tactic helped me alot when I was learning.Whatsmytotal said:
GOOD LUCK