Protocol for hitting "Home Base" Casino?

[Midwestern]

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post- and i want to say thanks to everyone here for being a great resource over the past month as i've gotten into blackjack and now beginning to count cards.

some background on me: I've been a Recreational poker player and Horseplayer for 10+ years. but here's the thing: I'm in the financial industry. Money Management is my thing. Therefore I have FUN when i gamble, but that doesn't mean i wildly throw my bankroll around. In fact, id like to make a nice supplemental long-run income from BJ which now leads me to my question:

My local casino is 45 minutes away and it's the only game in town. The nearest casinos other than this one are about 4 hours away. I've been going there about once a week for about 4 weeks now and and winning nice sums consistently ( i.e. 2x-3x my session BR) thanks to some favorable variance and solid BS. i am a red/green chipper through and through, with aspirations to get up to black for my vegas trips.

I want to improve my game and keep the income flowing. Therefore for obvious reasons I don't wanna get heat.

So i'd like to ask the seasoned veterans around here: is there a 'right' way to do it? how much can i take this store for on a consistent basis? will my natural variance be enough to tip them off that i'm counting or will they not care if i'm a red/green chipper? Most of the other patrons are either ploppy or locals going double-or-nothing on their friday paychecks with red chips. i've seen less than 5 patrons betting consistent black action.


It's in a small town so i think most of the weekend Swing-shift dealers know my face by now. i play 4 hour sessions, and make alot of small talk with dealers. obviously the wrong thing to do here would be to hit-n-run this place for 10k because the house would likely not welcome me back with smiles&open arms that i enjoy right now.


oh by the way, the games here are $5 minimum/$500max, (they also have $25min/2500 max). BJ pays 3:2, dealer hits soft 17, 70-75% pen, 6 deck shoe, no surrender, double on any 2, double after split, Split aces get one card.

thanks!

 

[swamper]

I have been asking myself the same thing about my local casinos. I love about 10 min away from 2 places that I have played once a week since I started live play CC (not long ago at all). These places have good games. I have three other places about 1.5-2 hrs away. So far I have noticed no heat at all and play red chips. Have been doing well in my sessions and never play longer than 45 minutes spreading 1-20.

I too wonder if I will wear out my welcome at these places which I really don't want to do because I don't really have a lot of extra time to even go to the places 2 hrs away.

Thanks for the post midwestern.

 

[BJgenius007]

oh by the way, the games here are $5 minimum/$500max, (they also have $25min/2500 max). BJ pays 3:2, dealer hits soft 17, 70-75% pen, 6 deck shoe, no surrender, double on any 2, double after split, Split aces get one card.

thanks!

72.5% penetration, H17 and no surrender?

That is a horrible game. Positive variance of yours indeed. I will avoid the game like a plague.

You will lose money in the long run unless you spread 25 or 30 to 1. Then you will become an unwelcome guest very soon. There is no way around it.

Give up the dream to use this casino as a cash cow.

 

[FLASH1296]

You are playing Basic Strategy, (almost no doubt imperfectly), in a casino
with poor playing conditions, where you have been lucky. Your chances of
your "lucky streak" continuing much longer is extremely small. I would like
to be able to bet on that.

:laugh:

 

[Midwestern]

yikes!

so, how bad is the casino edge (in terms of %) in my game compared to a better game? i will be looking around to find out.

i know the rules weren't the best, but spreading 1-30 might actually work, if im not mistaken in my thinking below:

for my purposes, wonging is out of the question as it will attract too much heat, so i figure if i flat bet until the count is good, i can perform a 'synthetic wong' ....the below bet ramp is what i've been using in my sessions

where hi-lo true count is: 0 or less, bet $5
true count +1, bet amounts between 15-25
truecount +2 and beyond, bet 30,60,90,120,150

personally i think the bet ramp makes it look like i'm martingaling (which is great cover, in my opinion)

are you saying that if i actually want to beat this game, i should get to my 30x bet at a lower count?

regardless of the unfavorable rules, i'm still curious what the protocol is when you only have one home base casino

 

[BJgenius007]

so, how bad is the casino edge (in terms of %) in my game compared to a better game? i will be looking around to find out.

i know the rules weren't the best, but spreading 1-30 might actually work, if im not mistaken in my thinking below:

for my purposes, wonging is out of the question as it will attract too much heat, so i figure if i flat bet until the count is good, i can perform a 'synthetic wong' ....the below bet ramp is what i've been using in my sessions

where hi-lo true count is: 0 or less, bet $5
true count +1, bet amounts between 15-25
truecount +2 and beyond, bet 30,60,90,120,150

There are many threads on how to spread. You should have your max bet on TC +3 (or +4).

For a shoe game to reach TC +6 so you can bet $150 is too rare an occasion.

In short, this might work

TC bet size
neg/0 $5
+1 $25
+2 $75
+3 $150

 

[BJgenius007]

I have been asking myself the same thing about my local casinos. I love about 10 min away from 2 places that I have played once a week since I started live play CC (not long ago at all). These places have good games. I have three other places about 1.5-2 hrs away. So far I have noticed no heat at all and play red chips. Have been doing well in my sessions and never play longer than 45 minutes spreading 1-20.

I too wonder if I will wear out my welcome at these places which I really don't want to do because I don't really have a lot of extra time to even go to the places 2 hrs away.

Thanks for the post midwestern.

I also have casinos to choose from. The one closest to my house, I always spread 8 to 1 for their shoe game. So I always have one place to play. For other casinos, I spread 20 to 1.

 

[Koz1984]

Perhaps backcounting and Wonging in when opportunity presents itself is the solution here. My only available game has an identical rule set, albeit with upwards over 87.5% pen, so I know I'd be stupid to play all. Wong in at +2.

 

[Sucker]

is there a 'right' way to do it? how much can i take this store for on a consistent basis?

Every casino is different. The "right" way at one casino may very well be totally wrong for another. How much can you take them for? That is ALSO casino-dependent ; the amount can vary TREMENDOUSLY, depending upon the house.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Variables

As sucker pointed out each casino is different. Here are some things to consider for longevity:

When do they call checks play, need to stay below this bet.

How often can you wong, this can limit your spread which is camo. The more people standing around with open seats the more you can wong.

How big is the action around you? You mention few black chip players yet you are betting black.

Does the pit stare you down? This is heat.

How do they view winners, do they ask for ID at the cashier cage? If so stay below this cash out number, one can always bring chips back on next trip.

If losing can play a longer session.
If a big win cut things short.
Must post losing sessions if playing rated.

One should play different styles in the same session:
play all
wong in/wong out
wong in
weak wong, enter at +rc
wong out
back and forth between 1 and 2 hands, when a civilian would
raising and lowering bets when a civilian would
pay attention to the civilian logic around you and use it
change your betting ramp around in same session, reverse your lower bet ramp as an example

On spread:
The more you play all the more spread you need
The more you wong, the lesser spread you need
At least take a break/end session at worse then -3 tc and leave when a civilian would, after a bad beat hand.

 

[creeping panther]

Swamper

I have been asking myself the same thing about my local casinos. I love about 10 min away from 2 places that I have played once a week since I started live play CC (not long ago at all). These places have good games. I have three other places about 1.5-2 hrs away. So far I have noticed no heat at all and play red chips. Have been doing well in my sessions and never play longer than 45 minutes spreading 1-20.

I too wonder if I will wear out my welcome at these places which I really don't want to do because I don't really have a lot of extra time to even go to the places 2 hrs away.

Thanks for the post midwestern.

Swamper, why not forget about BJ and just do the "Loving", full time, 10 minutes away from the 2 places:laugh::laugh::laugh::joker::laugh:

 

[swamper]

CP, that cracked me up when I actually saw the "LOVE". :laugh: It took me a sec but I finally got it. Maybe I should stick to the lovin.............. I'm gonna leave as "LOVE" just for the fun of it.

 

[gamblingghost]

so, how bad is the casino edge (in terms of %) in my game compared to a better game? i will be looking around to find out.

i know the rules weren't the best, but spreading 1-30 might actually work, if im not mistaken in my thinking below:

for my purposes, wonging is out of the question as it will attract too much heat, so i figure if i flat bet until the count is good, i can perform a 'synthetic wong' ....the below bet ramp is what i've been using in my sessions

where hi-lo true count is: 0 or less, bet $5
true count +1, bet amounts between 15-25
truecount +2 and beyond, bet 30,60,90,120,150

personally i think the bet ramp makes it look like i'm martingaling (which is great cover, in my opinion)

are you saying that if i actually want to beat this game, i should get to my 30x bet at a lower count?

regardless of the unfavorable rules, i'm still curious what the protocol is when you only have one home base casino

A problem I solved by having a cousin that works in the casino. Nothin like
inside info you can trust.

 

[apex]

Swamper,

Congrats on your hot start! I had a similar positive variance start. I know I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't have early success. You are now in a good spot to get serious.

I am in pretty much your exact situation. I would say you should ignore most of the negative advice. First, the game you have available isn't terrible, it is very average for our part of the the country and it is beatable. The house edge is about .6%. You don't see many $5 games that are much better. Penetration is probably quite variable. Pay attention to which dealers give good pen, and you will be able to consistently play 75-85%.

Your ramp looks good. Spreading $5-90 most of the time is good, 2 hands $10-90 is better. Best in my opinion is this: Play 2 hands at the start of the deck @$10 drop to 1X$5 or wong when the count drops. If your optimal bet is over $100, go ahead and bet it if the pit is already watching your table. If they are not you may choose to bet $90 to avoid the "checks play" call. Pay attention to the pit's reaction. Rathole chips, winning or losing.

In our situation you can't hop casinos, so you need to become accepted there. Get a players card. They will recognize you if you go regularly and it will be weird if you don't get one. Just play your game with little cover. You may be backed off at some point, but it isn't like you have a great game you need to protect.

Lastly, look for other opportunites. Keep your eyes open and you may notice some really cool stuff. Our area of the country is one where game protection lags behind. Take advantage!

 

[swamper]

Apex.......when ratholing can the pit and cage see that there is a discrepency between your color up and cash in at the cage and if they do does that matter?

Thanks a lot for your advice. I also sent you a PM

 

[apex]

Glad to help.

Apex.......when ratholing can the pit and cage see that there is a discrepency between your color up and cash in at the cage and if they do does that matter?

In my experience the pit and cage do not communicate most of the time. Cash out $200 or less in green/red at a time. If you do get "caught" it doesn't matter. Lots of non-counters stash chips. I have started ratholeing shamelessly after some advice from forum members.

 

[Midwestern]

One should play different styles in the same session:
play all
wong in/wong out
wong in
weak wong, enter at +rc
wong out
back and forth between 1 and 2 hands, when a civilian would
raising and lowering bets when a civilian would
pay attention to the civilian logic around you and use it
change your betting ramp around in same session, reverse your lower bet ramp as an example

good advice--
until now i've been playing all (with some wonging out for terrible shoes) but not nearly switching up my play style as much as i should to make the most $.
i like the idea of playing 2 hands at 90 when at +3 or +4. putting much more money on the table while still being stealthily under 100. although if i don't push ill never know how comfortable this casino can get

 

[Midwestern]

First, the game you have available isn't terrible, it is very average for our part of the the country and it is beatable. The house edge is about .6%. You don't see many $5 games that are much better. Penetration is probably quite variable. Pay attention to which dealers give good pen, and you will be able to consistently play 75-85%.
......
Lastly, look for other opportunites. Keep your eyes open and you may notice some really cool stuff. Our area of the country is one where game protection lags behind. Take advantage!

phew so the game is not all doom and gloom? I figured the game was harder, but i didn't want to think unbeatable. when i estimated the pen it just looks like dealers were chopping off 1.5 decks. however i wouldnt be surprised if the pen was down to 1 deck from time to time on a good dealer.

id love to know what you meant by keeping my eyes open for other opportunities? im assuming you mean holecarding and other dealer errors? i'm pretty sure that exploitable events are really common at my store, i've been the beneficiary of many dealer errors already :grin:

 

[blackjack avenger]

Checks Play

good advice--
until now i've been playing all (with some wonging out for terrible shoes) but not nearly switching up my play style as much as i should to make the most $.
i like the idea of playing 2 hands at 90 when at +3 or +4. putting much more money on the table while still being stealthily under 100. although if i don't push ill never know how comfortable this casino can get

If the dealer calls checks play and the pit looks, it's not heat but it's attention. Now, if your upper betting limts are just passing $100 then those extra pennies are probably not worth the attention. Also, if you bank is not conservative then you are taking on more variance and that extra attention given the risk of drawdown may not be worth it.

Those 2 hand bets should not consistently be the same, especially if you use a red chip up progression.

double 75s with extra junk red chips thrown on top should look natural.

Know what an optimal bet ramp is, and then forget it and never use it. Well, sort of!

 

[alwayssplitaces]

It's perfectly normal for the color up and cash out totals to be different. Ploppies could take some chips and lose them at the craps table, or win some more at craps.

You want to rathole away twice your expected value an hour. Put a green chip away every hour, winning or losing. The main thing is to avoid posting a lifetime win. Don't bother with cover plays since you're a red chipper. At your current level, they may know you're counting but will tolerate your play.