Question about BE and PE

[thomas]

Hi all.

ASSUMPTION: We are going to assume we are all genious and we could count card using any counting system without any problem!!

According to http://www.qfit.com/card-counting.htm, the best way to count for PE would be to use the Uston APC. The best way to count for BE would be UstonSS, reverse Point, or Wong Halves.
However, PE is particularly important in hand-held games (1-2 decks.), while BE is best for 6-8 decks. Well that's what they say.

QUESTION 1: I don't understand very well PE and BE. Could you explain what do they mean? The small definitions from http://www.qfit.com/card-counting.htm are too short.

QUESTION 2: How does BE and PE affects my betting? Please don't tell me that "the higher it is the more you should bet". I am more looking for actual numbers than anything else and which one should you use?

QUESTION 3: So we know that PE is for 1-2 decks, and BE is for 6-8 deck. How about 3-5 decks?

QUESTION 4: What is the best way to calculate the true count? Should you use the BE or PE to get the true count, since they are based from some counting systems or another system? If you pick another system, which one is the BEST?

 

[SammyBoy]

I think you may be confused. I'm not an expert but I will tell you what I know. PE is playing efficiency and BE is betting efficiency. Without a computer, it is practically impossible for a count to have a perfect BE and PE because it is just too difficult for someone to count using the exact numbers for the cards as they are removed from play (effect of removal of each card). So each count rounds the actual numbers to something that can be added and subtracted in a persons head. Because of this some count systems are closer to the actual advantage or disadvantage you may have when placing a bet, but are not as accurate when determining if you should double that 11 against a dealer 10 (or any other playing decision).

In single deck games there are fewer cards so counts that have a higher PE are better. In multi-deck games there are so many cards that the PE is less important because as an example the dealer can pull a 2-2-2-2-2-A for a 21, this can't happen in a SD game.

I hope this helps until some of the true experts can chime in.

 

[SammyBoy]

Actually it is BC for Betting Correlation and not Betting Efficiency. Sorry about that.

PE and BC have nothing to do with calculating the true count. Think of BC as a rating for how well a count systems performs in determining your actual advantage before the cards are dealt. Think of PE as a rating for how well a count system performs when it is time for you to make a playing decision such as should I split these 8's against the dealers 10.

Here's something else to think about. Each card as it is removed from the deck has an actual value. Check out the link below for a good explanation.

http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/Stats/correl.htm (Archive copy)

 

[MrPill]

Re: Question about BE and PE *LINK*

Thomas,

Here is a good site for definitions of BE & PE.

I'm sure you can also find answers to alot of your questions if you go through these lessons.

Good Luck,
Pill

 

[Automatic Monkey]

PE is more important in SD games than it is in shoe mostly because you cannot spread in SD like you do in shoe. A 1:12 spread in a big casino shoe game is pretty standard; try that in a SD game downtown and see what happens. And related, being you have a lot more money out on high counts with shoe, the betting correlation becomes more important. There is also insurance correlation which again, is more important in shoe because of the size of the bets you have out when insurance is called for. If all you are going to ever play is shoe, High-Low is as good a count as any to use at least as a start. When you have mastered that, you can switch to Wong Halves which is very powerful and uses mostly the same playing indexes as High-Low so you won't have that much more to learn. Then if you are really ambitious, you can add an Ace. Ace-Nine, or a Tens sidecount to it to increase your insurance correlation. Then you will have a blackjack system the equal of the best in the world. The most important thing is, whatever you use, make sure you understand it and use it well.

The high PE of a count like Hi-Opt II can get a SD game into positive EV with a flat bet. In SD the removal effects of individual cards are magnified but... in most pitch games the cards are dealt face down so you cannot update your count for playing decisions as easily as you can in shoe. Even though I play mostly shoe, I use Hi-Opt II with Ace sidecount because it will serve me equally well when I get a chance to play SD or DD.

 

[V-man]

Re: Simple Answer: BE and PE

For any card counting system be it HiLo, KO, Uston APC or Wong Halves, there is 2 numbers associated with it, namely BE and PE, which refers to, for that particular counting system, how efficient you are betting (your money) and how efficient you are playing your hands (you hit/stand/split/double down not based on Basic Strategy but the count).

BE is the most important number (regardless the number of decks) because most of your money you make is based on this 'Betting Efficiency', ie you bet 1 unit when TC is below or 1, 2 units when TC is between 2 and 3, 4 units when TC between 3 and 4, etc ... You can rely on BE alone and ignore PE (using strictly BS alone to play your hands regardless of the counts) and still make money. However, most AP on this board and also elsewhere, would not stop at 'Betting' alone, all AP learn some index numbers, the most well known set called the Illustrous 18, or I18, named after Don Schlesinger book Black Jack Attack. For a given counting system, the less number of decks used the more important PE becomes. But even for single deck, and using the most complicated counting system, PE alone don't make you money.

 

[SammyBoy]

Thanks AM! I knew I was missing something.