Question on big man bets.

[shadroch]

Without going into details,I played a few hours with the beginnings of my team the last few days.We had two Gorilla bettors jumping into games at the right moment.We somehow won our first 8 Gorilla bets and ended up winning 17 of 29 $100 bets.Our three flat bettors ended up down $60 between them.
Is 17 wins out of 29 decisions about what we could expect?After our original streak,we were under 50-50 for the next 21 bets,which took several hours.
There was zero heat anywhere,although we overdid the hit and run,I'm sure.
All in all,a decent beginning.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Your statistics are well within expectations.

Being you are nowhere near a betting level of getting heat, but you are employing team tactics that will get you heat (every time you lay down a signal you put all AP's in the casino at risk of some very stern treatment) you might want to have the play callers also raise their bets when the count rises. Otherwise you are giving EV away by allowing the play caller to flat bet or for him to walk away and let someone else take the spot. I guess you could let the PC take a lammer to conserve cards, but that would be awkward after a while and at a $100 level, no reason for him not to bet big along with the BP.

 

[shadroch]

I see your point,but as these are training runs,I think the callers should get used to simply flat-betting,no?In the short run,we'll be going perhaps $25-250 so I honestly don't expect much heat anyway.A dozen or so $250 wins a day will suffice,for now.
We are not out to win the house. We want to grab the chandelier one bulb at a time.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I see your point,but as these are training runs,I think the callers should get used to simply flat-betting,no?In the short run,we'll be going perhaps $25-250 so I honestly don't expect much heat anyway.A dozen or so $250 wins a day will suffice,for now.
We are not out to win the house. We want to grab the chandelier one bulb at a time.

Well if you are talking about Atlantic City play, $25-250 is still not big enough for the BP tactics to be efficient. They're unlikely to get heat at that level. Problem is, if you get made as a team in the meantime, you're going to get major heat from that point on.

 

[shadroch]

Obviously,I'm very new at this.If our Gorillas aren't drawing heat,what might cause us to get discovered as a team?Our signals are verbal so cameras can't detect them.
To clarify,the callers will be betting $25,the gorillas $250.

 

[RJT]

Firstly having your spotters raise their bets at all is a terrible idea. The whole point of the team approach (as stated in a recent previous thread) is that none of your players do anything that makes them look like counters - hence having spotters spread at all defeats the whole purpose and the huge spread that your BP should be using (that between your spotter's bet and the BP's bet) should more than compensate for the lost EV due to your BP not being able to be there for every +ve hand. As long as you are subtle about it, even physical signals don't attract that much attention.
However, your minimum bet needs to drop. While the BP/Gorrila tactic is very powerful, it only gains that power when you implement a very big bet spread, big enough that you couldn't implement it playing individually.
I'm assuming that the biggest bet that your bankroll can withstand is $250, so my first thought should be that you should have your spotters drop down to only sitting at $10 and $15 tables. This doesn't mean that you can't play $25 - or even larger limit - tables, but does mean that they should only backcount these tables (essentially implementing an even bigger spread). This way they can mix and match between playing and standing back counting. They should be aggressive when spotting, looking for tables which have less players where at all possible (playing heads up is ideal if they can find it) and wonging out aggressively when the shoe turns sour.

RJT.

 

[Bojack1]

Obviously,I'm very new at this.If our Gorillas aren't drawing heat,what might cause us to get discovered as a team?Our signals are verbal so cameras can't detect them.
To clarify,the callers will be betting $25,the gorillas $250.

Playing with gorilla big players is a little different and not as efficient as playing with regular big players. First off during an advantage if your signaler stays at the table flat betting they will be eating up cards and diminishing the gorillas opportunities. Gorillas if spreading too much can still draw heat, and if there has been verbal communication between the gorilla and the signaler that can cause problems. Sometimes with gorilla play physical signals are best even though the camera can see them. Here's an example why. There was a case one time when I was signaling for a gorilla. We did not speak we just used physical signals to communicate what needed to be done. The gorilla was doing very good, so much that the pit boss came over and questioned the dealer about who at the table was with the gorilla. The dealer told the pit boss that he was playing alone and that he didn't even have a conversation with anyone at the table. The pit watched some more, was satisfied, and left. The point being, look at the tables and find common movements and characteristics of regular players. To mimic them does not raise suspicion, it makes you like everyone else. Only difference is your subtle movements mean something. Overall the most common reason a gorilla big player(GBP) is used is because they don't have the complete skills to handle whats required of counting and placing properly sized bets, but can play BS and have a very good casino presence. In this case the signaler is the skilled player passing off plays to the GBP.

If your GBP is skilled enough to play without help from others, than it would be a much stronger game to use spotters and a regular BP. Letting the BP sit at the table while the spotters would leave and find other tables, leaving the BP to take full advantage of the advantage. And as stated earlier by expanding your spread by having spotters betting as low as possible, including just backcounting you will see much higher returns. I understand that you are just getting your feet wet as a team, but it actually is easier to play with a regular BP as there is very little cover or acting required, and there will be a lot more advantages to play with usually a much larger spread.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I don't think Shadroch really means gorillas, but skilled players as BP' s. Either way, there's no point in having the spotter/play caller not spreading too, at these small stakes.

 

[Bojack1]

I don't think Shadroch really means gorillas, but skilled players as BP' s. Either way, there's no point in having the spotter/play caller not spreading too, at these small stakes.

That really depends on where you play. If only playing in A.C. then yeah the signaler could spread also with out too much trouble. However its not really the proper way to play this technique and with any new system its probably better to not get into bad habits from the start. If played properly it is very hard to get backed off playing with a team using a BP method. As you may know though if you don't do it right and do get backed off this way, its really something you don't want. So why would you want to have multiple people sitting at the same table betting like counters jeopardizing multiple team members before they even get the chance to play at higher stakes. To each his own, and I wish the best to shadroch and his team, but there is a right way and wrong way to play the big player method. Trial and error is not the best way to find out the wrong way in this case. I've been down this road before trying to help new teams get started, all I can say its not as easy as some may think.

 

[Dopple]

Okay so in AC they cant legally bar you for counting but if they come upon a crew or team as they are called I bet they can ban you then right?

 

[moo321]

No, they still can't bar you. But the will shuffle up and tell you how much you can bet. And probably keep your picture.

 

[RJT]

And once they've put it together that you are working as a team, all members of the team who were linked then have associates listed on their files meaning that if the casino were to decided to share that information it's a lot easier to for another casino then to nail the entire team if they start looking.
Put it this way, if they just decide to check to see if your face is on record and it's not, you're in the clear as long as you don't push it too hard. If they look and your face is there, your in trouble. If they look and your face is there, it also says 'works with a team' and they have a quick look round for your associates, you're all screwed.
Best just to avoid the whole situation in the first place. The whole purpose of team play like this is the phenomenal level of cover it offers you at little or no cost (assuming you employ a large enough spread). When members of your team start jepordising this cover for a few extra pennies by taking actions that the whole strategy is specifically trying to minimise, you've got lost somewhere along the line.
However, as i stated to Shadrock earlier, currently the spread he's using is not big enough to really get the advantage that this technique is capible of. I understand his urge to take 'baby step' and actually full agree with it. You want to get out there and fix any major problems before you start betting big money, but you also don't want to waste too much time betting at this level and start looking to get the money out there!

RJT.

 

[Dopple]

So if they have you as a counter can they limit your bets without team play. That would be discouraging.

Do they share pics with Vegas, I am probably on file there I would guess although I dont be much I spread heavy.

Although I have had bad luck lately it is in my blood to give the game another shot, I have such good memories.

Can they limit you at the Indian joints. I was thinking of New Mexico this year.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

And once they've put it together that you are working as a team, all members of the team who were linked then have associates listed on their files meaning that if the casino were to decided to share that information it's a lot easier to for another casino then to nail the entire team if they start looking.
Put it this way, if they just decide to check to see if your face is on record and it's not, you're in the clear as long as you don't push it too hard. If they look and your face is there, your in trouble. If they look and your face is there, it also says 'works with a team' and they have a quick look round for your associates, you're all screwed.
Best just to avoid the whole situation in the first place. The whole purpose of team play like this is the phenomenal level of cover it offers you at little or no cost (assuming you employ a large enough spread). When members of your team start jepordising this cover for a few extra pennies by taking actions that the whole strategy is specifically trying to minimise, you've got lost somewhere along the line.
However, as i stated to Shadrock earlier, currently the spread he's using is not big enough to really get the advantage that this technique is capible of. I understand his urge to take 'baby step' and actually full agree with it. You want to get out there and fix any major problems before you start betting big money, but you also don't want to waste too much time betting at this level and start looking to get the money out there!

RJT.

Cover is fine. But give me EV!

You really have to see the AC playing environment to understand this. If you hit and run, backcount, move around a lot, you can get down very large bets without BP's and nothing bad is going to happen to you. The worst that can happen is you have one member flagged at one store. Backcounting and playing anonymously is good enough cover in itself.

 

[RJT]

I have seen the AC playing environment. Just recently actually.
You might be able to get down big bets, but you are never going to achieve the bet spread that you can with a BP. 1-25 nice if a player can get away with it, but most can't. Think bigger. With a good bankroll it's perfectly achievable to use a 1-100 spread when employing the BP technique. Why would you risk this for the little that your spotter could get away with?
If your spotter gets nailed you run the risk of your BP getting nailed as well. All it would take is the spotter to make a call in at the wrong moment when the eye was on him/her and someone's interest in the BP is suddenly perked. A spotter's easily replaces. A BP is a lot of training and dedication and at that point you really have to re-evaluate your risk verse reward equation.
What about lifespan? Truth told, a spotter will earn more in the long run spending his/her time backcounting and flatbetting with excellent cover than they will by generating the little extra EV that a 1-15 spread would generate and burning themselves out in less time.
Then you've got to consider that on most BP teams, spotters have only been checked out to carry a running count and know when to call in the BP (hence why they are easy to replace). Before anyone is allowed to decide what bets should be put out at what points, you have to check them out using a far stricter standards, including bet sizing, indices and dealing with all of this while dealing with the distractions that the casino can and will throw at you. In my experience most players will never be of a level that they should be used as BP's. The level of time and practice that goes into passing BP check-outs is unreal - very few people will put in the required effort no matter how long they play the game and as such shouldn't be trusted in a team environment to put out any large quantity of money.
And as much as i usually disagree with uber paranoid views, to have spotter's spreading their bets mean you have to equip them with more money. On this one i feel that the only people that should be carrying serious cash are the people who have shown the skill and personality traits that can be trusted by everyone on the team. All you do by giving lots of players large amounts of cash is exponentially increase the odds of dishonesty.

RJT.

 

[shadroch]

While this practice run was in AC,I project that much of our play will be in Nevada.I'd rather lose a little EV and get our technique down pat.But I appreciate all the advice and suggestions.

 

[RJT]

I'd rather lose a little EV and get our technique down pat.

Sounds like a good plan. If you re-invest some of your winnings, you could be setting up a good money maker for the future.

RJT.