Questions re: Penetration

EasyRhino

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
In my noobish ways, I'm just really starting to become of aware of penetration at my local casinos. At least enough to be horribly offended at one place that had about 60% penetration (after waiting for manual shuffling, too!). So here's a pile of questions:

1) Why is deep penetration good? I can see how, if you find yourself in a favorable count, good penetration will make it last longer. Any other reasons?

2) When gauging penetration, what's the more useful "true" measure, the percentage, or the number of cards cut off?

3) All things equal, what's better, a 6D game with 1.5 decks cut off, or an 8D game with 1.5 decks cut off?

4) Any mental tips for how to gauge penetration?

5) One place had what seemed to be one deck cut off on a 6D game. Is that good?

6) What's the best penetration that could reasonably be expected on an 8D game?
 
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ScottH

Well-Known Member
EasyRhino said:
In my noobish ways, I'm just really starting to become of aware of penetration at my local casinos. At least enough to be horribly offended at one place that had about 60% penetration (after waiting for manual shuffling, too!). So here's a pile of questions:

1) Why is deep penetration good? I can see how, if you find yourself in a favorable count, good penetration will make it last longer. Any other reasons?

2) When gauging penetration, what's the more useful "true" measure, the percentage, or the number of cards cut off?

3) All things equal, what's better, a 6D game with 1.5 decks cut off, or an 8D game with 1.5 decks cut off?

4) Any mental tips for how to gauge penetration?

5) One place had what seemed to be one deck cut off on a 6D game. Is that good?

6) What's the best penetration that could reasonably be expected on an 8D game?
Click to expand...

1) You see more extreme swings in the count the farther they deal down the pack. The greater the swings in the count, the more chances you will get to raise your bet.

2) They are the same. Most people use % since it's hard to estimate to the card.

3) The 6D game. The fewer the decks the greater the swings in count as well.

4) Just practice at home and it won't be very hard to estimate pen within 5%.

5) Yes, that is 83% penetration. Usually you want AT LEAST 75% in a shoe game, and 80% or more is good penetration.

6) I've never played an 8-deck game, but you probably won't get less than a deck cut off. One deck cut off is 88% penentration, which is EXCELLENT. So I would probably say 1.5 decks cut off is about the best you can expect. 2 decks is probably the most you would want cut off. 2 decks cut off is 75% penetration, which is usually the minimum needed to play a shoe game. But the 1.5 decks cut off is 81%, which is just fine.
 
C

Cass

Well-Known Member
EasyRhino said:
In my noobish ways, I'm just really starting to become of aware of penetration at my local casinos. At least enough to be horribly offended at one place that had about 60% penetration (after waiting for manual shuffling, too!). So here's a pile of questions:

1) Why is deep penetration good? I can see how, if you find yourself in a favorable count, good penetration will make it last longer. Any other reasons?

2) When gauging penetration, what's the more useful "true" measure, the percentage, or the number of cards cut off?

3) All things equal, what's better, a 6D game with 1.5 decks cut off, or an 8D game with 1.5 decks cut off?

4) Any mental tips for how to gauge penetration?

5) One place had what seemed to be one deck cut off on a 6D game. Is that good?

6) What's the best penetration that could reasonably be expected on an 8D game?
Click to expand...


I mostly agree with what Scott said, but here is how i would answer your questions

1) The count is more accurate the deeper the pen. The less cards remaining, the greater your edge. Would you rather play a 2 deck game or a 1/2 deck game?

2)It doesnt matter whatever works best for you as long as you are accurate

3) I believe it would be the same but i would need to run a sim to make sure

4)Just buy yourself 6 or 8 decks, whatever you play and cut in different spots and learn to recognize how many cards are cut off... practice!

5) I would say one deck cut off is Very good pene

6) I know one place that cuts off half a deck or less.. or they used to. But dont expect to see less than one deck cut off anywhere. If they cut off 1.5 decks or less I would say that is a decent game if they have good rules like surrender.
 
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ScottH

Well-Known Member
Actually, about question 3, I think I gave you a bad response. I said it backwords. In a 6 deck game with 1.5 decks cut off, it is 75% penetration. With 8 decks and 1.5 decks cut off, you have 81% penetration. So just according to penetration the 8D game is better. However, fewer decks are generally better than more decks. My guess would be they are close games, but probably the 8D game would be better due to the better % penetration. Sorry if I misled you in my original response. Someone else will have to answer to to make sure, but my best guess is the 8D game in that situation would be slightly better.
 
sagefr0g

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
ScottH said:
Actually, about question 3, I think I gave you a bad response. I said it backwords. In a 6 deck game with 1.5 decks cut off, it is 75% penetration. With 8 decks and 1.5 decks cut off, you have 81% penetration. So just according to penetration the 8D game is better. However, fewer decks are generally better than more decks. My guess would be they are close games, but probably the 8D game would be better due to the better % penetration. Sorry if I misled you in my original response. Someone else will have to answer to to make sure, but my best guess is the 8D game in that situation would be slightly better.
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i found some referance to this issue in Snyder's Blackbelt In Blackjack page 156.
the six deck game would be better at 75% penetration even though the eight deck game has the better penetration of 81%.
6deck 75% H17 0.79advantage S17 1.16advantage S17lsr 1.53advantage
8deck 81% H17 0.44advantage S17 0.77advantage S17lsr 1.10advantage
this using red7 count 1:12 spread
the above figures not with standing one has to agree penetration is a huge factor affecting ones success.

best regards,
mr fr0g :D
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
EasyRhino said:
In my noobish ways, I'm just really starting to become of aware of penetration at my local casinos. At least enough to be horribly offended at one place that had about 60% penetration (after waiting for manual shuffling, too!). So here's a pile of questions:

1) Why is deep penetration good? I can see how, if you find yourself in a favorable count, good penetration will make it last longer. Any other reasons?

2) When gauging penetration, what's the more useful "true" measure, the percentage, or the number of cards cut off?

3) All things equal, what's better, a 6D game with 1.5 decks cut off, or an 8D game with 1.5 decks cut off?

4) Any mental tips for how to gauge penetration?

5) One place had what seemed to be one deck cut off on a 6D game. Is that good?

6) What's the best penetration that could reasonably be expected on an 8D game?
Click to expand...
1) Actually deep penetration does not make it last longer. It can get it over with very quickly.... oh you mean blackjack and good counts!:laugh: The fewer cards left in the shoe/deck, the higher the true count goes when a few low cards are removed, and the bigger your advantage. Of course the low counts also get lower with deep pen, but you are going to be either betting low or walking away from the table when that happens.

2) Number of cards.

3) The 6D is slightly better, but only slightly. The reason is that in the first two decks of an 8D shoe you are very unlikely to be playing with an advantage, and that will cost you money. This fact is offset somewhat but not completely by the fact that when you do get an advantage early in the 8D shoe it tends to last for a long time. You are also unlikely to be playing with an advantage in the first two decks of a 6D shoe.

4) Don't ask me, I suck at deck estimation!

5) 6/1 penetration... sounds very good to me, especially if it has late surrender or some other desirable rule.

6) I've seen as little as half a deck behind the cut card in an 8D game. That is rare and considered a dealer error. Bad pen costs the casino more in a 6D game than an 8D game which is why you see so many 8D games with bad pen. But good pen is where you find it.
 
S

SystemsTrader

Well-Known Member
EasyRhino said:
In my noobish ways, I'm just really starting to become of aware of penetration at my local casinos. At least enough to be horribly offended at one place that had about 60% penetration (after waiting for manual shuffling, too!). So here's a pile of questions:

1) Why is deep penetration good? I can see how, if you find yourself in a favorable count, good penetration will make it last longer. Any other reasons?

2) When gauging penetration, what's the more useful "true" measure, the percentage, or the number of cards cut off?

3) All things equal, what's better, a 6D game with 1.5 decks cut off, or an 8D game with 1.5 decks cut off?

4) Any mental tips for how to gauge penetration?

5) One place had what seemed to be one deck cut off on a 6D game. Is that good?

6) What's the best penetration that could reasonably be expected on an 8D game?
Click to expand...
1) Another way to look at deep penetration is that it increases the chance of you getting to play into positive hands. Here is an example from some test I ran last year against poor penetration, 8-deck at 65%. The count will only hit +4 Hi-Lo or KO in 15% of the shoes you play. That spells almost no opportunity to make money. That is why good penetration is important!

4) Try different techniques until you find one you like. Definitely practise at home. Here's a different method you could try. When the dealer is putting in the cut card in visually break the decks into half, quarter and thirds. Then observe which section the cut card goes into for your estimation. The problem with this method is you need to be in the right position to see the decks properly. Another technique is to pull out a tape measure. LOL

6) I've actually seen 100%. This young inexperienced dealer absentmindedly through the cut card to the side instead of reinserting it into the decks. I was sitting at third base and was salivating thinking I would actually get to experience end play. The dealer started then some old C**t (pardon my language) sitting in the center of the table pointed it out to the dealer. He was so proud of himself, he said it loud enough for the pit boss to hear and she came running over and made the dealer reshuffle. I actually wanted to strangle the old guy.
 
sagefr0g

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
question regarding penetration

i've never seen a chart or table that shows the quantitative value of various degrees of penetration ev wise. do such charts or tables exist?

best regards,
mr fr0g :D
 
S

SystemsTrader

Well-Known Member
sagefr0g said:
i've never seen a chart or table that shows the quantitative value of various degrees of penetration ev wise. do such charts or tables exist?

best regards,
mr fr0g :D
Click to expand...
Blackjack Attack by Schlesinger.
 
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blackjacksquirrel

Well-Known Member
I can understand the importance of good penetration for a card counter. I have also read that it is supposed to be good for a BS player aswell, but I can't understand how. since a BS don't know the count they can't bet more/less/leave accordingly. and even though they can get lucky and get a really high count with good penetration. they are just as likely to get a really low count.
Could someone please explain this or give me some direction on where to find it in another thread.
 
Sonny

Sonny

Well-Known Member
Actually, less penetration is better for BS players. The dealer will be shuffling more often so the game will be slowed down. Slower playing means less bets, which leads to smaller losses for a BS player.

-Sonny-
 
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