questions

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Splitz

Member
I am new an aspiring C², and I have a couple questions.

First, what method do most people use to determine the TC... looking @ the discard tray or estimating decks based on rounds played?

Secondly, I am currently using Hoyle's Casino for practice, does anyone know if this is a good program? I am getting messed up, count never gets high. I turn on the card counter in the game to get the TC and to check my RC every now and then. Also seems the computer is doing somein wierd to find the TC... 6 decks, RC = 12... isn't impossible for the TC to be 1?... maybe I am doing it wrong!

-thanks
 
R

Rob McGarvey

Well-Known Member
"I am new an aspiring C², and I have a couple questions. First, what method do most people use to determine the TC... looking @ the discard tray or estimating decks based on rounds played?"

Normally the discard tray for multideck games and possibly double and single deck games. Single deck there are ways of coming up with the TC since we are working with less than a single deck after the first hand is played.

"Secondly, I am currently using Hoyle's Casino for practice, does anyone know if this is a good program? I am getting messed up, count never gets high. I turn on the card counter in the game to get the TC and to check my RC every now and then. Also seems the computer is doing somein wierd to find the TC... 6 decks, RC = 12... isn't impossible for the TC to be 1?... maybe I am doing it wrong!"

I use Hoyle BJ, not casino, but I think the program is the same. With an RC of 12 you should have at least TC +2 with 6 decks. I think you are making mistakes counting the cards. The program uses Hi Opt I if I remember correctly. That is 3456 = +1 and 10 = -1, Aces sep. The TC is probably rounded down so this could explain the problem if you are using Hi Low which is 23456 = +1 and 10A = -1.

Scan the messages below and find......I'll find it for you:

http://www.cardcounter.com/main.pl?noframes;read=1557 (Archive copy)

Take a shot at this again to get your game on.
 
S

Splitz

Member
Thanks for the response.

I was thinking maybe I was making mistakes counting the cards too... but the card counter thing in the game gives an RC and a TC... and it gave an RC of 12, and a TC of 1... that's wierd, and I use Hi-lo, game uses different system? does it not count aces in the RC or what?

-Thanks
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
First, what method do most people use to determine the TC... looking @ the discard tray or estimating decks based on rounds played?

**Both, but mostly looking at discards

Secondly, I am currently using Hoyle's Casino for practice, does anyone know if this is a good program?

**It ain't. Try SmartCards or NeUltraMC or BJ678. zg
 
C

Cyrano

Well-Known Member
--You look at the discard tray. I think I did it a little differently from most people, though. I created one of those BS cards (you know, the ones you usually see ploppies use?) and on the side, I put my own little ruler marks (inches) except, instead of 1 inch, it marks of 1 deck (how many of you can remember accurately how long 1 inch is?). Due to height constraints, I only went up to 4 decks.

First, what method do most people use to determine the TC... looking @ the discard tray or estimating decks based on rounds played?
 
C

Coug Fan

Active Member
Great Idea

That is a great idea! One somewhat serious question though. Would this type of modified basic strategy card be considered a device under Nevada law? I am assuming that the unmodified card would be OK since the casinos sell it in the gift shop, but given the irrational Nevada laws in this regard, I could see them saying that this is a "device". Same question regarding a BS card with index numbers in the margin, etc.
 
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Cyrano

Well-Known Member
Re: Great Idea

Since it doesn't really "keep track" of cards directly (it's at most, only telling you how many cards were discarded), I don't really see it as being too much of a problem. I'm sure many other people have thought up many ways. Some more innovative I've seen are: putting an actual standard of measurement on and eyeballing (say, if the deck is .75 in. then they'll just eyeball the .75 inches and check the discard tray. Another friend I know told me to just buy a deck of cards at the local gift shop. Put it next to you when you're playing and use that as a standard to judge how many cards have been discarded. You can use any kind of props.. a book, your wallet, tickets.. just compare the prop to a standard deck first. I, for one, can't do comparisons in my mind--can't sing, can't judge distance, can't even draw--without a reference, so I need a prop. I think they'd have a hard time proving anything.
 
L

learning to count

Well-Known Member
Casino Verite. Expensive but if your serious

you need it. It has web site some where. One of the classic CC softewares out there and easy too. GO on E-bay, or put an add out in the websites for a used copy. I bought mine for $40!
 
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Rob McGarvey

Well-Known Member
Thumb Nail

When I turn my thumb to the horizontal position and look at the width of the nail it is exactly the width of a 52 card deck. Some card stock is thicker and the deck is bigger, so I would suggest you grab a used pack and check them before you play. Most casinos use a standard Bee style deck.
 
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Cyrano

Well-Known Member
Re: Thumb Nail

Those are excellent ideas! Actually, I usually play 1-2 decks, so I use UBZ 2, but every so often, I feel the need to play a shoe game. At those times, I convert the running count to true count. I think I'll switch from my little card to stacking chips. It sounds interesting. By the way, does anybody know what the gain in EV is by playing a TC version of UBZ 2? I don't know how to simulate it with my SBA.
 
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Rob McGarvey

Well-Known Member
Re: Thumb Nail

I don't have the UBZ II system, but I don't think you should be converting to a TC with that system. That is the big draw back of unbalanced systems. You start with -2 for 1 deck, -4 for 2 deck, and -12 for six deck, or some neg #. When you get to 0 your edge begins and then you begin to place larger bets. Without the system I can't advise you properly, but that is how an unbalanced system works. You can also start with 0 and at +12 your edge kicks in for 6 deck, but then your indice #'s have to be changed as well.
 
U

UB TC'er

New Member
on the contrary Rob..

UBZ II is VERY powerful when true-counted properly, and its much easier than you think...
 
R

Rob McGarvey

Well-Known Member
Great to Hear

I have never seen the system and take your word for it. Please tell us about how the UBZ II system is played.
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
UBZ + TC = 'TUBZ (pronounced 'TUB-ZEE)

UBZ + TC = 'TUBZ (pronounced 'TUB-ZEE)

TUBZ will slightly out perform ZEN whereas UBZ2 will slightly under-perform ZEN.

To calculate TUBZ i#s, start w/ZEN i#s and deduct -4 from each. This one set of i#s will suffice for any #decks.

To play TUBZ, use an IRC of -4 per total #decks.

Use the RC for betting and the TC for playing.
This one set of i#s will suffice for any #decks.
Theoretically TUBZ may be easier to employ than ZEN because the burden of TCadjust is lessened, yet its performance might slightly edge-out ZEN. zg
 
R

Rob McGarvey

Well-Known Member
John Auston's UBZ

Very Simple, Yet Powerful, UBZ System for DD

From Stanford Wong's BJ21
AND found on BJMath.com

Posted by John Auston on 29 May 1998, 6:11 a.m.

I've been playing around with the Unbalanced Zen at Double Deck, and have come up with what I think is a VERY simple system that none-the-less yields a near 2 unit per 100 hand Win Rate(1.91) in a heads-up 70 card H17 DAS 1-6 spread game, with no true count, just a very few (8) departure indices (NO splitting of 10's, of course) and bets based on 5 easy to remember 'rules'.

Here is the 'system':

Use UBZ card tags. IRC of -8.

Rule #1:

Relax and play DD H17 BS, flat betting 1 unit anytime the Running Count is < 0.

At RC = 0

Rule #2:

Anytime the RC = 0, Bet 2 units and start to make this departure: stand on 16 v 10

Up until 1 full deck is in the discard tray:

Rule #3:

At RC = +2, bet 4 units and add these 4 departures:
Take Insurance. Stand on 12v2 and 12v3 Double 8v6.

Rule #4:

At RC = +6, bet 6 units and add these 3 departures:
Stand on 15v10 Double 9v7 and 8v5.

Rule #5:

After whole 1 deck is gone, perform Rules #3 & #4 at exactly 1/2 the Running Count you used during the first deck, i.e. do them at RC = +1 and RC = +3, instead of +2 and +6, respectively.

And that's it.

ROR on a 400u bank is 15.7%.
500u are needed for 10%. ROR.
650u are needed for 5% ROR

N0 is 22,642 (hands to achieve +1SD result)
DI is 6.7.

I sim'ed a Hi-Lo player under the same conditions, except that the Hi-Lo player used all of the I18, including splitting 10's. Hi-Lo bet 2 at +2tc, 4 at +3tc, and 6 at +4tc.

Both sims were 500,000,000 rounds.

My simple UBZ system edged out the Hi-Lo player, who won at a 1.89u/100 rate, 16.7% ROR on 400u, 515u for 10% ROR, 670u for 5% ROR, N0 of 23,657, and DI of 6.5.

Regards,
John Auston
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
Re: WATER in the TUBZ?

Practically speaking all 3 will perform equally. Theoretically their ranking is UBZ-ZEN-TUBZ zg
 
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