Red 7 count or KO, beginner counter, looking for assistance.

[BJLover]

Hi there,
I have just decided that i want to learn how to count cards, i have bought several books including ;blackjack for blood, blackbelt in blackjack, million dollar blackjack and KO blackjack, having studied these books for a few weeks i have come to the conclusion that an unbalanced count would be the safer opion to start me off in the buisness, this is because they are easier to learn and i am confident i could perform an unbalanced count without any mistakes(after alot of practice), i was thinking i could maybe upgrade to a better yielding count(hi-lo)??? later on.

is this the way to go???

I have rounded the counts down too; red 7count, KO count, and maybe hi-lo, if the extra effort learning that system is worth it.

i live in Scotland, no the best place to play blackjack, but i love the game and have got basic strategy nailed cold.

the nearest casino to my home plays 6deck shoe, dealer stays soft17, doubledown 9,10,11, DAS, dealer has no hole card.

Any help about reccomended counts etc would be a great help,

Thanks

i

 

[SystemsTrader]

My suggestion is to actually try a few of the different counts to see which one you are most comfortable with. Most counts are close in performance anyway so go with the one you feel you can master the best!

 

[EasyRhino]

I don't know much about Red 7, but I immediately discounted it for my personal use because I didn't like the idea of having to look at number AND color for counting certain cards. Trying to keep it as simple as possible.

 

[bigbjfan]

I started with Red7 but then switched to KO. Even with KO being one of the easier counts, it took me about 6 months to learn it and use it accurately in a casino. I'm a part time player and what took me the longest was getting the speed up enough to count in pitch games dealt face down as those are the best games available for me to play.

 

[BJLover]

I started with Red7 but then switched to KO. Even with KO being one of the easier counts, it took me about 6 months to learn it and use it accurately in a casino. I'm a part time player and what took me the longest was getting the speed up enough to count in pitch games dealt face down as those are the best games available for me to play.

Thank you, do you use the count in shoe games?? how quickly can you count down a deck/2 decks? got any practice tips???
thank you for your help.

 

[bigbjfan]

Thank you, do you use the count in shoe games?? how quickly can you count down a deck/2 decks? got any practice tips???
thank you for your help.

I use the KO count in shoe and pitch games. I can count down a deck between 20-25 seconds. I would recommend practicing counting down a deck two cards at a time because that is what really helps in the speed department. I can quickly count cards when they cancel each other out. Practice whenever you have some spare time and keep a deck handy.

 

[sagefr0g]

Thank you, do you use the count in shoe games?? how quickly can you count down a deck/2 decks? got any practice tips???
thank you for your help.

consider the practice tips i outlined in the link below:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=16537&postcount=6
there is also a link within the above link for a practice regime.

best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[BJLover]

I use the KO count in shoe and pitch games. I can count down a deck between 20-25 seconds. I would recommend practicing counting down a deck two cards at a time because that is what really helps in the speed department. I can quickly count cards when they cancel each other out. Practice whenever you have some spare time and keep a deck handy.

Thanks for the advice, ive just finished work, managed a couple of hours practice today, seems a bit daunting to start with, even with an easier count like red 7, but its amazing how quickly you pick it up, was counting down a deck in around 35secs, was more concerned with accuracy, so speed will hopefully pick up. thought having to count the red/black sevens with different point counts would be a struggle but after a few counts its ok.
think am away to purchase CV software, seems to be the industry benchmark.
thanks again

BJLover

 

[BJLover]

red7 ,ko

I started with Red7 but then switched to KO. Even with KO being one of the easier counts, it took me about 6 months to learn it and use it accurately in a casino. I'm a part time player and what took me the longest was getting the speed up enough to count in pitch games dealt face down as those are the best games available for me to play.

hi, why was it you changed from red7 to KO, i play in 6 deck games and was in the understanding that red7 was slightly more powerfull in 6 deck games than KO. is this correct??

 

[Dr. Feelgood]

If you are just starting to count I would recommend trying the Golden Touch. I know it has been getting bashed around a bit on this site but I have been using it for about 6 months with great results. I was struggling early on with Hi-Lo when I started counting because I could not socialize very well when using it and was losing counts off and on. I am a black chip player so I have had to be careful with GT in regards to heat however there are several built in safeguards. I know it is not as powerful as others but it has been great for me so far.

 

[QFIT]

The advertised "built in safeguards" are that it plays inaccurately. It looks like you are no threat to the casinos because you are no threat to the casinos. Please realize that empirical evidence has no meaning. Giving people advice on playing BJ based on empirical evidence is like George Burns advising people to smoke for long life.

 

[zengrifter]

If you are just starting to count I would recommend trying the Golden Touch. I know it has been getting bashed around a bit on this site but I have been using it for about 6 months with great results. I was struggling early on with Hi-Lo when I started counting because I could not socialize very well when using it and was losing counts off and on. I am a black chip player so I have had to be careful with GT in regards to heat however there are several built in safeguards. I know it is not as powerful as others but it has been great for me so far.

BAD ADVICE. Irrespective of your personal results GT is NOT recommended because of the extreme variance that you are likely to incur at some point.

Better off to play HiLo running-count with 'count-adjusted' basic strategy. zg

 

[casino_bound_west]

Count Adjusted Basic Strategy

Did anyone ever do any sims comparing count adjusted basic strategy to the Ill 18?

Are you referring to the count adjusted basic strategy in THopper's book?

 

[ortango]

BJLover, though I read KO, Blackbelt and Professional BJ before I started and although I am convinced of the power of KO and R7, I went right to Hi-Lo from the beginning. The TC conversion difficulty is a myth if you just practice a bit with sizing the played decks out, and if you can do simple division. The reason I picked Hi-Lo is because it is "universal" as far as most of the indexes and such (such as all the neat tables in Professional BJ). I also like the idea of - is bad and + is good, as opposed to pivot points.

One way I like to practice with my trusty deck o cards that I carry around is to count in many different ways. Instead of just counting down of the top at 0, try some variations:

One card at a time
Two at a time
5-7 at a time spread out
----
take out one random card, then count down and name the picked card
take out 2 and name the picked cards (they will be either l/l, h/h, m/l, m/h or m/m or l/h)
take out 3-10 cards and do the same
----
start at various counts, so you are not doing the same numbers all the time
try starting at -5, +5 and +10
----
use more than one deck, and try mixing some of the techniques above

I know it is tough at the casinos but don't worry, you will reap the rewards if you put in the work.

 

[Dr. Feelgood]

I think some of you guys are sounding like the guy who has a car with 50 more horsepower and if anybody has one less its crap. Just because the GT has less power than say Hi-Lo doesn't mean its crap. You have to consider that if you play an easier system perfect for an hour you may end up being better off than making 3-4 mistakes with a more complex one. I doubt if I am a threat to any casinos but my bankroll tells me I am on a hell of a roll using the GT the last 6 months. If I felt comfortable playing perfect with Hi-Lo I would use it but the GT has done OK and I know its better than straight BS

 

[ScottH]

I think some of you guys are sounding like the guy who has a car with 50 more horsepower and if anybody has one less its crap. Just because the GT has less power than say Hi-Lo doesn't mean its crap. You have to consider that if you play an easier system perfect for an hour you may end up being better off than making 3-4 mistakes with a more complex one. I doubt if I am a threat to any casinos but my bankroll tells me I am on a hell of a roll using the GT the last 6 months. If I felt comfortable playing perfect with Hi-Lo I would use it but the GT has done OK and I know its better than straight BS

You're on the right track that playing an easier system can be just as good as a more complex one with a few errors per hour. BUT, at least from what I have heard, GT isn't that close in strength to Hi-Lo. But if you aren't willing to learn a system with more power, than go for it since it is better than BS. But like zengrifter said, you will experience a lot of variance. So even though you have the advantage you WILL at some point have a big negative swing.

On a side not you should not judge the performance of your system based on how much your bankroll is up. Your short-term personal results can be up or down no matter what system you use. Even a BS can be up after 6 months. The only thing you can compare is the EV for the system.

I'm not trying to knock your play or your system. I am just giving you some information you might find useful.

 

[BJLover]

red7 power,hi-lo's next

BJLover, though I read KO, Blackbelt and Professional BJ before I started and although I am convinced of the power of KO and R7, I went right to Hi-Lo from the beginning. The TC conversion difficulty is a myth if you just practice a bit with sizing the played decks out, and if you can do simple division. The reason I picked Hi-Lo is because it is "universal" as far as most of the indexes and such (such as all the neat tables in Professional BJ). I also like the idea of - is bad and + is good, as opposed to pivot points.

One way I like to practice with my trusty deck o cards that I carry around is to count in many different ways. Instead of just counting down of the top at 0, try some variations:

One card at a time
Two at a time
5-7 at a time spread out
----
take out one random card, then count down and name the picked card
take out 2 and name the picked cards (they will be either l/l, h/h, m/l, m/h or m/m or l/h)
take out 3-10 cards and do the same
----
start at various counts, so you are not doing the same numbers all the time
try starting at -5, +5 and +10
----
use more than one deck, and try mixing some of the techniques above

I know it is tough at the casinos but don't worry, you will reap the rewards if you put in the work.

hi, Thank you for reply, i am eventually going to learn hi-lo count, it was originally my first choice count for the very reasons you stated, the only reason i went for the red7 count was, its almost as effective as the hi-lo count system(but easier to apply) and after i have mastered it i can use the true-edge conversion(basically the same calculation as truecount conversion) to increase profitability and power of red 7 advanced count system, then, if am able to use the red7 count in this manner i will have proved to myself that i can handle the hi-lo system with truecount conversion, if i cant handle the conversion i will simply revert to the red 7 advanced strategie.

hope that makes sense.

BJLover

 

[QFIT]

I think some of you guys are sounding like the guy who has a car with 50 more horsepower and if anybody has one less its crap. Just because the GT has less power than say Hi-Lo doesn't mean its crap. You have to consider that if you play an easier system perfect for an hour you may end up being better off than making 3-4 mistakes with a more complex one. I doubt if I am a threat to any casinos but my bankroll tells me I am on a hell of a roll using the GT the last 6 months. If I felt comfortable playing perfect with Hi-Lo I would use it but the GT has done OK and I know its better than straight BS

OK I just ran two quick sims, one with HiLo playing perfectly and one using HiLo with 4 playing errors per hour. The SCOREs were 28.4 and 26.8. The sim with the playing errors had 94% of the SCORE of the sim with perfect play. Since GT has about 35% of the SCORE of HiLo, that means GT played perfectly has about 37% of the SCORE of HiLo with four errors per hour.

As for GT's superiority over BS; certainly not in all cases. In my mind, not for the very case it was designed. See http://www.advantageplayer.com/blackjack/forums/bj-main/webbbs.cgi?read=19021 (Archive copy)

 

[Dr. Feelgood]

Thanks for the link. I am surprised there is that high a percentage to lose your bankroll however 1:16 betting spread is huge. I use the conservative technique with the GT however it still is 1:8 and I will tweak it if I am at a borderline count. Maybe I will get comfy with KO or Hi-Lo at some point.

 

[QFIT]

Thanks for the link. I am surprised there is that high a percentage to lose your bankroll however 1:16 betting spread is huge. I use the conservative technique with the GT however it still is 1:8 and I will tweak it if I am at a borderline count. Maybe I will get comfy with KO or Hi-Lo at some point.

You didn't say the game. If you are playing GT with shoes and a 1:8 spread, your SCORE is tiny. In fact even with S17, DAS, LS, and only one deck cut off (very good rules,) your SCORE would be about 10. That's $10 an hour profit with a $10,000 bankroll, an optimal bet ramp and full Kelly (13.5% risk of losing the $10k.) And it's unlikely you have an optimal ramp. A more typical game would give a SCORE of 5, with optimal betting.