Repost from www.bj21.com

[Automatic Monkey]

The CSM is no disadvantage to a non-counter, but it might be good to spread the rumor that it is. Whenever I play, I mention to people that I believe those machines cheat. Already I notice that the CSM table have fewer players than the rest and the casino can't possibly like this.

The 6:5 is a problem but it isn't everywhere. On my last trip to Reno I saw it at about half of the SD games around and nowhere else. When we start seeing it in shoe we're in trouble, because then it will more to the Strip and to AC and it will become the industry standard.

But it's a good idea to let as many people as possible know that 6:5 is a ripoff. If they want to be ripped off, they should go play Spanish 21. Both games can be beaten by a counter, the 6:5 more so than the Spanish, but there is no reason to even try if there is any other game around.

 

[Stealth Bomber]

Only under the right circumstances can a counter beat 6:5. If the table is full of people and the counter only gets two hands per shuffle, then his spread would have to be too large. Only 1 in every 4.? hands will the bet be made while the count is above zero.. If a counters EV is only $5 or less per hour while betting green, I wouldn't consider that as 'beating the game'.

A CSM is beatable too under the right circumstances. I've beat them by back-counting for hours. Playing only one hand out of about every 10. I wong in at +1.5 TC, play a hand then wong out. Then go to another table in another area and do the same.

We should just tell the average player that these games are not generally beatable under the usual circumstances.

I think the flyer is too long and should be designed only to inform Mr. & Mrs. Ploppy. Maybe, during a campaign to inform the public, we shouldn't even say anything about counters and whether or not they can beat any certain games. The ploppies of the world want to believe only that they have a good chance of beating certain games without having to be a counter. Just by mentioning 'counters' in the flyer, it rains on their dream of winning even good condition games unless they are professionals.

I don't think we should have the objective to inform the public of the need to become counters. Let's face it, there has to be losers and ploppies are important to the industry. If everyone was a counter, there would not be a BJ game to play.

SB

 

[LV Bear]

CSM hurts ploppies, too

The CSM is no disadvantage to a non-counter, but it might be good to spread the rumor that it is.

It is a disadvantage, because it speeds the game up. The more hands per hour, the faster (or more) they lose.

 

[Counter - Intelligence]

Re: CSM hurts ploppies, too

I have been telling CSM players that BJ has an inherent house advantage "off the top"(they all agree that this is true). Each round dealt from a CSM is "off the top", therefore you never get into an advantage situation. I generally follow that up with the "When was the last time you got a 'Hot Shoe' from a CSM?" It leaves them thinking.

Any discussion beyond that tends to become too technical for civilians, and generates an argument or leads to the inevitable "do you count?" question which I prefer to avoid.

 

[Sohrab]

Re: CSM hurts ploppies, too

But CSM slightly lowers house basic strategy edge, yes?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Re: CSM hurts ploppies, too

That's true it does speed up the game. It's the dealers it really hurts, physically. Shuffling is less work for them than dealing and they miss the break and chance to chat they get from the shuffle.

On the other hand, having a counter who Wongs in or out hurts the non-counters at the table probably more than the CSM hurts them, and the CSM keeps us away so the net effect might be to their benefit.

If a group of 6 BS players wanted to get together and play for comps, they could take over a table and play slow, real slow, and I'd bet that at something like the Reno -0.31% shoe games or even Strip games they could get themselves into positive EV. You get something like 25% of a BU per hour comped at a decent joint. So let's say you are playing $100, you are being paid $25 an hour in comps and paying 31 cents per hand to play. Slowing it down to 30 hands per hour which should be extremely easy for 6 players, you are losing $9.30/hr for a net profit of $15.70 per player per hour. Not bad for a bunch of BS players.

 

[Stealth Bomber]

CSM's may not hurt plop's worse than a shoe.

Agreed. We're there playing and taking up two hands worth of good cards otherwise we wong out and let them have the bad ones.

Ever notice how on 6D when you wong out at -6TC or worse, when you come back everyone is blaming you because you ruined the 'flow' and the D just took all their $?