Should I Become a Card Counter?

[tribute]

I am a recreational player. I know basic strategy for 2D and 6D, and as it applies to available rule variations. I play 3 or 4 times per year. Over the last five years I have read the best books and have participated in this forum and others. I understand card counting, if performed expertly, can give me an advantage over the house. However, it seems the responses and feedback (on the forums) indicate a general trend that card counting players don't really have great success. I know a 1% or 2% advantage is expected, but is it worth the time and trouble for a player like me, to study and practice to learn a system, considering the limited time I actually play? (Maybe the successful counters are not reporting their results in the forum!)

 

[Mikeaber]

Tribute,

Neither am I a "professional". I'll be honest with you and tell you that I took up Advantage Play for the challenge of trying something new. At my stakes, I had no illusions of making millions but, I thought counting could give me a slight advantage and overall, I thought I might "lose less." So far, that has happened about the way I expected it when I total up my wins and loses since I've been counting. But not exactly the "way" I thought it would happen.

You shouldn't expect to go into a casino and play for 6 or 8 hours the way you probably do now and come out with a profit of x% of the amount wagered. First of all, you probably wouldn't be able to sit at a table and count for 6 or 8 hours without getting caught and backed off! It doesn't work that way for me anyway.

When I played recreationally and flat bet, I would have a lot of sessions where I lost a little or won a little and a few where I lost a lot! The goal was to "survive" on my bankroll long enough to complete the trip.

I still have winning and losing sessions just as before. However, instead of a lot of mild loses and wins with the loses coming more often, what I see is a lot of sessions with much larger "swings". That makes sense when you think about the way you are going to be spreading your bets with the count. You are going to be putting a lot more money in the circle when you have an advantage. However, just because you have an advantage doesn't mean that you are going to win the hand! You "should" win more than you lose but in grinding through those hands, you might not have luck on your side and consequently, may lose a lot more of those big bet hands than you expect and that makes for a huge loss session. To offset that, you will have winning sessions that are way above what you might expect.

I guess that we as gamblers, have an optimistic attitude or we wouldn't be involved in our obsession! We remember the "wins" and tend to minimize the loses. In my case, I seem to have more wins than loses and when I tally up my sessions, I am ahead. But I've taken some large unit loses along the way too and unfortunately, I haven't been able to "minimize" them enough I guess <LOL>

Should you put in the effort to learn Advantage Play? Well, of course that's up to you. It does take time and it does take practice. A lot of the practice you can get by dealing to yourself and counting, by playing simulators to get your speed and accuracy up, but the real practice will come from playing at the tables. Can you do it and play realistically just two or three times a year...I don't know. I know I'd have trouble doing that and keeping my skills honed for those two or three times without losing interest. And if you sit at a table and make mistakes, well, that's doom financially! With inaccurate counting, you'll likely be putting large bets out when you do NOT have an advantage and also betting small when you should be pushing it out!

 

[ScottH]

I am a recreational player. I know basic strategy for 2D and 6D, and as it applies to available rule variations. I play 3 or 4 times per year. Over the last five years I have read the best books and have participated in this forum and others. I understand card counting, if performed expertly, can give me an advantage over the house. However, it seems the responses and feedback (on the forums) indicate a general trend that card counting players don't really have great success. I know a 1% or 2% advantage is expected, but is it worth the time and trouble for a player like me, to study and practice to learn a system, considering the limited time I actually play? (Maybe the sucessful counters are not reporting their results in the forum!)

It might be worth the effort if you play more than a few times per year. It really depends on your stakes and hours played. But if you learn to count, you will not only cut your losses, but you will expect to win money! Although you do need to learn about the risk involved and proper bankroll management. When counting your wins and losses will be much larger than just flat-betting with basic strategy.

Maybe the sucessful counters are not reporting their results in the forum!

So far I have had good results counting!

 

[Cass]

I am a recreational player. I know basic strategy for 2D and 6D, and as it applies to available rule variations. I play 3 or 4 times per year. Over the last five years I have read the best books and have participated in this forum and others. I understand card counting, if performed expertly, can give me an advantage over the house. However, it seems the responses and feedback (on the forums) indicate a general trend that card counting players don't really have great success. I know a 1% or 2% advantage is expected, but is it worth the time and trouble for a player like me, to study and practice to learn a system, considering the limited time I actually play? (Maybe the successful counters are not reporting their results in the forum!)

Well ultimately it is completely up to you. There are a lot of things to consider. What kind of stakes do you play? How much of a BR do you have? Do you care if you lose or win money or is strictly recreational? Are you willing to accept that as a counter you may lose a lot more money in particular sessions than you would have if you just played BS and flat bet? To me it is very fun playing knowing that I have the advantage. Does it bother you that you may be backed off from the casino and no longer allowed to play blackjack? In my opinion if you are trying to play as well as you can(obviously you are since you have BS down pat) then you might as well move to the next level and learn to count. It is somewhat difficult when you are first starting out, but then it becomes second nature and you wonder why everyone else isnt counting. I think it is true most counters arent that successfull. You have to be dedicated and hardcore to make a lot of money(and the br!). Me personally- I spent the first several months of counting going up and down a lot not really getting anywhere. Refining my play, betting strategies and BR has helped me a lot. Also LUCK has been on my side. In the last two months I've been winning consistently and I'm up over 20K now.

 

[zengrifter]

Do you care if you lose or win money or is strictly recreational? .

Thats funny - rec-players don't care? zg

 

[Cass]

Thats funny - rec-players don't care? zg

Maybe he is a millionaire and he plays $5/hand I used to "not care" at least that is what i told myself.

 

[bnoc848]

learn an easy count since you dont play often, but when you see yourself winning, youll play more often!

 

[ihate17]

I know a guy

Maybe he is a millionaire and he plays $5/hand I used to "not care" at least that is what i told myself.

Cass:

I know a guy, kind of a friend who has to be worth at least 25 million, is a good recreational counter who plays green to low black. It is not that he can not play for more but it is his comfort level. He counts really not for the money but simply because he is a game player, likes to win, gets a kick out of beating the house and the money is a form of keeping score.

ihate17

 

[Mikeaber]

Cass:

I know a guy, kind of a friend who has to be worth at least 25 million, is a good recreational counter who plays green to low black. It is not that he can not play for more but it is his comfort level. He counts really not for the money but simply because he is a game player, likes to win, gets a kick out of beating the house and the money is a form of keeping score.

ihate17

:laugh: That sounds like me ihate17, except for the 25 mil and the green to low black!

 

[sagefr0g]

I am a recreational player. I know basic strategy for 2D and 6D, and as it applies to available rule variations. I play 3 or 4 times per year. Over the last five years I have read the best books and have participated in this forum and others. I understand card counting, if performed expertly, can give me an advantage over the house. However, it seems the responses and feedback (on the forums) indicate a general trend that card counting players don't really have great success. I know a 1% or 2% advantage is expected, but is it worth the time and trouble for a player like me, to study and practice to learn a system, considering the limited time I actually play? (Maybe the successful counters are not reporting their results in the forum!)

tribute there is a low level count system that is very easy to learn and will yield a small advantage. it's called the ace/ten front count. Fred Renzy talks about it in his Blackjack Bluebook.

try this link
http://anmore2003.tripod.com/BeyondBasicStrategy/id15.htm (Archive copy)

best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[tribute]

Previously I mentioned I have read most of the best books. Fred Renzey's is my favorite. I have used the Ace/10 front count. As you know, even Fred explains you will have to endure many shoes before finding the one giving you the advantage. And even then, you may not come out ahead. I will continue to use Ace/10, board counting, hand interaction, and those methods in his book. I probably will not begin learning a balanced count since my bankroll is limited and I don't get to the casino very often. As with other basic strategy, flat betting, or progression players, I have experienced good days and bad. After all, it IS still gambling!

 

[Mikeaber]

Thats funny - rec-players don't care? zg

:laugh: I always "cared" but now, my goals and expectations are different than when I played using only basic strategy.

 

[Gregory]

There are already so many excellent responses to your question that I wondered for a minute if I could actually anything. Perhaps my personal experiences will do.
You obviously already understand that counting will not yield a huge advantage and that most wannabee counters don't have the necessary bank roll to survive the variances.
What hit me hardest as a new counter is that counting isn't just about sitting down and counting the cards. By far my biggest challenge was that on high counts I had to push out a wager that was ten times larger than my normal flat bet. Why, that's TEN HANDS of blackjack if I just flat bet each hand ... and if I won ALL of of those hands ... just think!
I could look at the math and see what had to be done to enjoy even a minor advantage over the house, but the shock of pushing out wagers that were ten times higher than I had been flat betting for 20 years was ... unique. Granted, those 20 years were only playing blackjack a few times a year, but it is a very different perspective when wagering $5 a hand compared to $50 a hand.
Eventually I got over that challenge and now I feel confident in ramping my wagers as the count increases. Certainly a few wins helped in that regard! My own bottom line is to be prepared for "wager shock" if you decide to transition from basic strategy player to card counter.

 

[Cass]

Kiss count

Previously I mentioned I have read most of the best books. Fred Renzey's is my favorite. I have used the Ace/10 front count. As you know, even Fred explains you will have to endure many shoes before finding the one giving you the advantage. And even then, you may not come out ahead. I will continue to use Ace/10, board counting, hand interaction, and those methods in his book. I probably will not begin learning a balanced count since my bankroll is limited and I don't get to the casino very often. As with other basic strategy, flat betting, or progression players, I have experienced good days and bad. After all, it IS still gambling!

You should start by using kiss I count at the casino. It doesnt take long and it becomes effortless since you are only counting about half the cards.

 

[jetace]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the error that can occur with counting. Since you are a rec. player, you may not want to spend the time it takes to get counting down.

I guess it would more depend on how many decks you are playing with. If you have a lot of decks, it really takes a lot of practice to be able to divide correctly. If you don't put a lot of time into making certain your counting method is working, you can easily do worse than you would have if you only used basic strategy.

I am only saying this because I learned the hard way and took some big losses early in my counting career. I've never had a large br and I think that has hurt me as well.

Hope this helps.

 

[ihate17]

many recreational (non pro) counters are like that

:laugh: That sounds like me ihate17, except for the 25 mil and the green to low black!

It is being to beat them at their own game where they set the rules and not the money that is #1. The money is nice but it is more about who won the game. There again, in the past I purchased several rental homes by using blackjack winnings as down payments, so perhaps it is the money also. It is just more than the money.

ihate17

 

[tribute]

Several rental homes? Just how many IS several? Come on, ihate17, isn't this a stretch? I didn't know blackjack could be that rewarding!

 

[Mikeaber]

Several rental homes? Just how many IS several? Come on, ihate17, isn't this a stretch? I didn't know blackjack could be that rewarding!

Tribute, it's a matter of how much of a BR you are willing to risk....The return is there but not if you are playing $5 tables. Last night, I played at AmeriStar with 300 units spreading 1:10. When I left, I was ahead 91 units...almost double. Now, if I'd been playing Blackchip with a BR more in the 1000 unit range, it would not be hard to understand how someone could put down payments on rental property.

Granted, doubling in that short a period of time is not all that common...at least not for me. But it does happen.

 

[ihate17]

Downpayment not the whole home

Several rental homes? Just how many IS several? Come on, ihate17, isn't this a stretch? I didn't know blackjack could be that rewarding!

Over the past 22 years, 4 times I have purchased a home with a downpayment that came from blackjack winnings.
When you read blackjack books, the authors often talk about doubling their bankroll and then upping their bet range. 22 years ago I reached a bankroll stage where I felt that the increasing of my bet would put me in a situation where I was always going to play under extreme attention even in places that are used to large bets. My regular business gives me a very nice income, so at that time I decided to invest half my bankroll whenever I doubled it. This is So Cal property, so it is not inexpensive but each downpayment was between 50 and 80 thousand and at least for several years each property showed a negative cash flow. At other times when my bankroll doubled, I payed down on mortgages. Today, I have 5 rental homes (one was not bought because of blackjack) 3 are positive, one borderline and one still drains some cash and will for years. When I retire in a few years, by keeping most and selling one or two over the following years, I should have even a better lifestyle than I have had working.

Have I made a million on the tables. No. But I have made more than half of that, actually I have averaged winning a little over $20,000 per year but have never needed to use this money to live on.

I do not think my wins in 29 years of advantage play are that extraodinary. It is a lot of years afterall. What I think may be extraodinary is the fact that I have been able to play at so many places for many many years.

ihate17

 

[E-town-guy]

Today, I have 5 rental homes (one was not bought because of blackjack) 3 are positive, one borderline and one still drains some cash and will for years. When I retire in a few years, by keeping most and selling one or two over the following years, I should have even a better lifestyle than I have had working.


ihate17

Why don't your rental homes turn a profit?