single deck vs. 6 deck shoe

S

Stealth

Member
Not that I wouldn't love to play it under the right conditions but here's my findings:
1. If more than 2 of us players are at the table, can't get in enough hands per shuffle. Always seem to be fighting too many players. I look like as if I'm playing musical chairs/tables.
2. Great if 1 on 1 but we stand out. I might as well wear a sign that says "CARD COUNTER". Bets change just about every hand. Gotta keep spread low.
3. Can't play very long or your just another #86. Can't get it enough playing time.
4. Boring game. Can't double after splits. They took the fun out of it.
5. Cards are usually dealt face down. Can't count until after my hand is over and all cards are turned. (I always play 1st base so I have a perfectly sized bet before each deal.)
6. Can't get an accurate count for ins cause people want to hide there cards for some stupid reason. Can't see what's all out on the table. Sometimes people on opposite side of the table have pairs of face cards. They show up after I get sucked into wrongfully buying ins.

With a shoe, I have none of these problems. Takes a lot more patience though. Gotta be able to count fast and accurate too.

If I'm missing something special about single deck, somebody please hit me over the head with it. Let me know what it is! I think double deck is a little better though.

Stealth
 
Sonny

Sonny

Well-Known Member
Ah, is that the "crowded single-deck blues" I hear you singing?

I agree with most of what you said. If the game has more than two other players then it's probably not worth playing.

> 5. Cards are usually dealt face down. Can't count until after my hand is over
> and all cards are turned. (I always play 1st base so I have a perfectly sized
> bet before each deal.)

This is not especially a good idea. Just because you are sitting at first base doesn't mean that you will definately get the cards you are expecting. It doesn't even increase your odds of getting the good cards. It doesn't matter where you sit, the cards will come out when they want to come out. Who knows, maybe the count will be higher by the time it reaches third base; Or maybe it will be lower but the guy sitting there will still get a blackjack while everyone else's tens get stuck with sixes on the next pass.

You should always try to find a seat where you can see other people's cards in order to make better playing decisions. Just let the cards fall where they may. Sure, your betting may not be as accurate, but you playing will.

> With a shoe, I have none of these problems. Takes a lot more patience though.
> Gotta be able to count fast and accurate too.

You're starting to sound like Mason Malmuth now! He spends several chapters in "Blackjack Essays" comparing single-deck to six-deck games. They both have their stengths and weaknesses. Different games will be better for different types of players and different playing styles. If a casino is too crowded, avoid the pitch games and Wong into some shoes now and then, but don't expect to catch any hole-cards from a shoe. Or maybe try a little depth-charging.

You have to enter a casino with an open mind. Don't go there looking for a specific good game (as in: "I heard they have a six-deck game with S17 and LS. I'm going to play THAT!"), walk around and see what they offer and then find the best way to beat them. As an experienced advantage player, you should have enough tools in your toolbox to beat most games. The trick is to find which tools work best for which types of jobs, and which jobs are the most lucrative.

-Sonny-
 
S

Stealth

Member
Sonny, I agree with all that you say on this issue. But, I still believe 1st base increases your odds of getting the type of 2 card hand that is respective of the tc. Therefore, the bet size is perfect. I also believe that if I'm seeing so many of my neighbors cards, there's too many people on the table for single deck play. This all leaves me with a question: Is it better to see more cards so we can adjust our play decisions or is it better to have a perfect bet size respective to the "prior to pitch" tc.

I do always look for a good single or double deck situation before I settle in to a long term grind at the six decker.

I'm very new to "message boarding". Therefore, I need you to explain "depth-charging" please. ????

This reminds me: Does anyone or the Mayor have a slang and abreviation sheet for the most common stuff we see on here? Sorry I'm such a stupid "Newbie". Certainly not a "Ploppy" though. :) Might make some other Newbies feel more welcomed. I don't even know how to spell "Newbie". Need help with that too.

Thanks ya'll for all the good stuff. Learning has been good.

Stealth
 
O

Ohio_Jones

Member
BJ21.com has a BJ glossary for an alphabetized list of definitions and if you follow BJ resources then you will see a link to abbreviations commonly used on bj21.com.

P.S. Thank you for making us "newbies" feel so welcomed.
 
T

The Mayor

Well-Known Member
>This all leaves me with a question: Is it better to see more cards so we can adjust our play decisions or is it better to have a perfect bet size respective to the "prior to pitch" tc.

According to the true count theorem, the true count will be effectively the same, no matter which seat you sit in, so your bet size is correct, and not dependent on seat. However, the more cards you see, the better your playing strategy. Therefore, 3-rd base is always optimal.
 
S

Stealth

Member
WOW! The Mayor's right. I fried my brain for a while on this one. Thought I had one up on him but didn't. Everyone on the table including the D has the same odds of catching a big original 2 card hand with a high tc prior to the pitch. Therefore, 3rd B is optimal in this sense because chances are 3rd B player will see more cards before he/she has a decision to make.

However, I'm still not convinced that 3B is the best place to be. Too much scrutiny there. The ploppies and dealers expect 3B to play a certain way. Which that changes from ploppy to ploppy, dealer to dealer and play to play. In the eyes of most ploppies, they think we don't know how to play worth a damn (of course the tc is real high or real low when they usually complain and we're doing stuff that is ruining their whole world). Or we took the bust card. Or we shoulda done this or that etc. etc. This creates too much commotion and brings on the heat. Also talking and arguing with the plopps can make you loose count.

As for the middle of the table, some of us counters can look like we're watching a tennis match. That looks a little suspicious. + still some scrutiny.

Maybe first base is still best for me. Less scrutiny.

Comments encouraged.

-Stealth-
 
S

Stealth

Member
Ya Sonny. You're right on with what you said except we were both wrong about perfection of the bet size. It doesn't matter where a player sits. The tc applies to all at the table for primary betting pourposes.

Also check what the Mayor said and my response in this same thread.

Still think 1st B is best on a face up game.

Thanks all:

-Stealth-
 
Sonny

Sonny

Well-Known Member
Re: I know.

> It doesn't matter where a player sits. The tc applies to all at the table for
> primary betting pourposes.

Exactly! A little experiment will help to clear this up:

Take a standard deck of cards and remove all four aces. Then cut 22 cards off of the top and discard the remaining cards. Next, slip the four aces back into the 22 card slug and shuffle them until you feel that they are intermingled properly.

What you have just done is created a half deck segment that is ace-rich by two aces, which will simulate a positive deck. Now, deal out 5 cards, face down, on the table in front of you. What are the chances that the first card is an ace? Well, with no prior knowledge of the deck's composition you would figure a 4 out of 26 chance of getting an ace. Now, what are the chances of the second hand (or any other hand for that matter) of getting an ace? Still 4 out of 26, right? However, If you turn over each card as you look at it, and none of the first four are aces, then what are the chances of the fifth one being an ace? Now you have a 4 out of 22 chance of getting one. The chances are the same for every hand, but your accuracy increases as you see more cards.

> Still think 1st B is best on a face up game.

I would disagree, but that doesn't mean that you are wrong.

I prefer to sit towards the middle of the table, but not in the center. If you sit at first base you can see the second player's cards, and MAYBE the third person's (assuming they all sit next to eachother). I prefer to sit where I can have a player on either side of me that I can read their cards from. People will hardly ever sit directly next to eachother unless they are forced to. If you sit towards the middle, you can be fairly sure that whoever sits down at the table next will be readable. I alwyas sit directly next to someone already playing, then my teammate sits directly next to me so I will ALWAYS see AT LEAST two other people's hands before playing my own.

However, you are right about the "tennis match" part. If you are going to be looking around, do it with your eyes, NOT YOUR HEAD. Better yet, engage in a conversation wth the other players so that they tilt their cards toward you or even show you their hand every time. This will look very natural since ploppies often show off their good hands or complain about their bad hands to other players at the table. Maybe try something like "Another stiff! Damn, what did he give you?", or "YES! I'll tuck this hand, how 'bout you?"

Still, if first base is the best position for you, stick with it. There is no "best seat" at the table. Every player will prefer a certain spot for certain reasons. You will see more cards from third base, but maybe it is easier to front-load from first base or center field. Maybe you prefer first base, but you have a spotter watching that side of the table who will signal to you what cards people have, so you should stay at third base. Maybe you have a team member in the middle who is looking for your signals, so you have to sit where he can se you easily. Maybe third base is the only seat available to Wong into. The posabilities are endless.

In conclusion, sit wherever you feel most comfortable. Every player is different. Just make sure that you have a good reason or being there and not somewhere else. If you see a better spot open up at your table, don't hesitate to "move to a luckier chair."

-Sonny-
 
S

Stealth

Member
Re: I know.

Sonny, your right on the money. However, for me personally, I still think 1st B is best on a "face up" game. I follow counting the cards as they flop so I especially need to be on 1st or 3rd B. Have not yet mastered counting them in 2 card sets. Using A.Omega II. Not easy like it was with Hi/Low. My point is, it all comes back to looking like a guy in a tennis match crowd. Also, the discard rack is straight ahead of me. I also seem to get the dealer to let me cut the cards more often at 1 B. Maybe because it's just closer to where the shoe is. No dealer likes to risk moving a pack of 6 decks very far.
Oh yes, I almost forgot one; I think I get a better chance of seeing the burn card with a little slumlping acting on my part at 1st B.

As for a "face down" game; I think we should all be fighting to get the position just up stream from 3 B. Best place to have a better chance of seeing more cards before having to make decisions.

Not bad huh?!

-Stealth-
 
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