Single-deck vs. Multi-deck penetration

[Arctapodema]

I have been curious as to how you can get good penetration with a single or double deck game of blackjack. Most of the casinos in my area only offer six-deck games, however ive traveled and seen single and double decks in some areas. The problem being I usually have to face overcroweded tables, high table minimum bets, and horrible penetration on the shoe, usually around 60%. With a six deck game, i can usually get around 80- 90%. Obviously, counting is going to give you no advantage if you only see half the cards. Just curious as to how this works.

Thanks in advance

-J Dub

 

[Kasi]

Obviously, counting is going to give you no advantage if you only see half the cards.

Maybe it's not so obvious. 60% isn't 50% and the difference between 80% and 90% is pretty big too. Also the rules make a difference along with how much you're betting and spreading etc. But even 50% could be playable in the 1D or DD games.

As to overcrowding and high minimums, welcome to reality. Expect it and plan for it.

A 90% 6D game sounds awfully juicy to me under almost any circumstances. I'd jump on that quicker than a hobo on a ham sandwich.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

You also have to be careful about checking if the Single Deck game is 6:5 pay for a bj. I hear those tend to be prevalent

 

[shadroch]

There are still some sweet Double deck games left in Vegas,ones that give well more than 50-60% and have decent rules.But you have to look for them,most of them aren't in the tourist traps.

 

[Arctapodema]

i just dont see how seeing only half the cards can really give you an advantage. When i played the two deck games, i was traveling, so unfortunately i didnt get a whole lot of play time in (as compared to what i would have liked to.) but when i did play, my session bankroll was torn apart. even in a favorable count near the end of the shoe, the cards were completely unpredictable, and any bet increase i made just ended up in me losing more. when you play, do you opt for single and double deck games? it seems i have much better luck with six decks. as far as 90% penetration, it is fairly rare, but it just depends on the casino and dealer, and know the right dealers.

 

[EasyRhino]

Single deck is really really fun, and you'll tend to get good penetration if there's only 1 or 2 people playing. Unfortunately, it's hard to find an honest game these days, and it's hard (for me anyway) to ramp bets in a way that feels natural at all. If I wasn't counting, single deck would be the game of choice, bar none.

I've played doubledeck with 75% penetration, dealt face up, and that was friggin' sweet. But most DD games I see in casual observation have bad penetration (and minimums that are too high for me).

And then there's shoes. To be honest, I'm used to them. There are some local places that have fair-to-good penetration on 6D games.

Most importantly, if you wong hard enough, you can make money on anything. I'd rather backcount the hell out of an 8D game with 3 decks cut off than be in a play-all situation in a DD game with a full deck cut off. (Of course, I'd probably get bored from backcounting and leave after two hours without playing a hand).

 

[Kasi]

i just dont see how seeing only half the cards can really give you an advantage. When i played the two deck games, i was traveling, so unfortunately i didnt get a whole lot of play time in (as compared to what i would have liked to.) but when i did play, my session bankroll was torn apart. even in a favorable count near the end of the shoe, the cards were completely unpredictable, and any bet increase i made just ended up in me losing more. when you play, do you opt for single and double deck games? it seems i have much better luck with six decks. as far as 90% penetration, it is fairly rare, but it just depends on the casino and dealer, and know the right dealers.

As you can probably tell from some of the responses here, picking one game vs another is part of the "art" of card-counting.

How one balances one's session, trip and lifetime bankrolls vs the risk you want to assume and how much you're going to play is up to the player. How one chooses one's unit size and bet-spread and determines whether that is enough to beat a certain game is up to the player also. How one determines whether to wong in and out or play off the top of a shoe and only wong-out isn't easy either. And, at what point with what bet do you wong-in if u want to do that? If you wong-in at +2 instead of +1 you can have a higher unit but you'll play fewer hands. Which is better and by how much? Good to know the answer before you play.

Not to mention having the discipline to stick to the plan once you've decided all this. I know I certainly feel like betting more to "catch-up" when the chips are flying away from me. Which, if you do, usually means you are now overbetting and you better be careful.

Between the variety of games, rules, bet-spreads, bet-ramps and bankroll sizes there's almost an infinite amount of possibilities.

How do people choose anyway? - most of u guys use sims to help you decide? Me, I like the SCORE system to get an idea of one game vs another. But even that is just a guide.

But without some reading or sims, I just don't see how it's possible to figure out something that's likely to work.

So what was your session bankroll, trip bankroll and lifetime bankroll, risk, unit size, bet-spread and bet-ramp in the above game you mentioned?

 

[Arctapodema]

i havent exactly been in the fiscal situation to establish a significant bankroll, so ill generally just take a trip bankroll, usually $500. i only bring in a set amount to each casino, generally from $100 to $150 and play with $5 units. rarely do i make a bet more than four units. As you can tell, im new to this site, what exactly do you mean by wonging out?

 

[Mimosine]

i havent exactly been in the fiscal situation to establish a significant bankroll, so ill generally just take a trip bankroll, usually $500. i only bring in a set amount to each casino, generally from $100 to $150 and play with $5 units. rarely do i make a bet more than four units. As you can tell, im new to this site, what exactly do you mean by wonging out?

when the count tanks, you get up from the table and go take a leak, or get a drink, or move to the next table - anything to get away from a bad count!

 

[Kasi]

i havent exactly been in the fiscal situation to establish a significant bankroll, so ill generally just take a trip bankroll, usually $500. i only bring in a set amount to each casino, generally from $100 to $150 and play with $5 units. rarely do i make a bet more than four units. As you can tell, im new to this site, what exactly do you mean by wonging out?

That doesn't sound too bad - $150 with $5/unit should be fine for a session bankroll. $500 is probably actually OK for a trip bankroll if all the games you play are $5 depending how many hours you will be playing. But, see, that's all assuming you have a lifetime bankroll to support the $5/unit and a 1-4 spread. Probably none of it is enough to support a $10 unit. If $500 is your WHOLE (lifetime) bankroll, I probably wouldn't try counting with even a 1-4 spread in a DD game because I think that would be over-betting your advantage.

Keep in mind I'm new here too and have never actually DONE this stuff. Well OK a long time ago in another life for a short time, maybe.

And the fact you say you "rarely" make a >4 unit bet makes me think you're not reaching your max bet as often as would be expected to. Which kinda maybe means if you're not going to bet the required amounts at the desired True Counts, why count at all? Or at least admit to yourself you are really pretty much flat-betting, ocassionally making a >1 unit bet when u think the count is + and hoping for the best.

Anyway maybe the actual doers of this stuff will weigh in.

And what I meant by wonging out, as opposed to wonging in and out, was for those that play a no mid-shoe entry game and play off the top of the shoe until the count goes negative and then leave (wong-out). Or, if it goes their way, stick around til the next shoe. But they incur the cost of the waiting bets (very dfficult for me to quantify such cost) at the beginning to see which way the count goes. As opposed to the "pure" wongers (as I call them) who only jump in on positive counts and, in theory, rarely play at TC <=0.

 

[Arctapodema]

to be honest, the reason i rarely bet more than four units is because the situation rarely calls for it, especially in two deck games, which havent treated me so well. Howver, if there is a situation in which i can feel confident about throwing out a max bet, than i absolutely will. As far as wonging in, sometimes its just bet to wait it out for a new shoe and a better oppurtunity, but i usually stick it out unless the shoe is really turning...

 

[Kasi]

to be honest, the reason i rarely bet more than four units is because the situation rarely calls for it, especially in two deck games, which havent treated me so well. Howver, if there is a situation in which i can feel confident about throwing out a max bet, than i absolutely will. As far as wonging in, sometimes its just bet to wait it out for a new shoe and a better oppurtunity, but i usually stick it out unless the shoe is really turning...

Can we stick to just one game for a second? Say DD. You tell me if it's H17 or S17. You tell me if it has surrender or not. You tell me if it has DAS or not. You tell me what count you are using. You tell me what your max bet is. You tell me what your lifetime bankroll is. You tell me at what count you spread to 2,3,4 and/or more units and/or more than one hand. You tell me what your minimum bet is. You tell me whether you are "playing-all" or "back-counting". If you are wonging, you tell me at what count u wong in, what your spread is and what your initial unit size is. You tell me what penetration you are assuming.

"Feeling confident" about a max bet has little to do with anything.

If u don't know all of the above without even thinking about it, good luck to you. You'll need it.

Otherwise it's tough to know what you're doing. But if it's DD, whether your spreading 1-4 or 1-8, chances are you'd be reaching a 4 unit bet at TC+3. And TC+3 or better should happen alot more often than "rarely", like maybe 12% of the time.

And, if you're up to it, the same stuff for the other games you're playing.

 

[EasyRhino]

Also, 1-4 bet spread is still a losing proposition in a shoe game, maybe break-even in doubledeck, and well suited towards a liberal single deck game

 

[Arctapodema]

Can we stick to just one game for a second? Say DD. You tell me if it's H17 or S17. You tell me if it has surrender or not. You tell me if it has DAS or not. You tell me what count you are using. You tell me what your max bet is. You tell me what your lifetime bankroll is. You tell me at what count you spread to 2,3,4 and/or more units and/or more than one hand. You tell me what your minimum bet is. You tell me whether you are "playing-all" or "back-counting". If you are wonging, you tell me at what count u wong in, what your spread is and what your initial unit size is. You tell me what penetration you are assuming.

"Feeling confident" about a max bet has little to do with anything.

If u don't know all of the above without even thinking about it, good luck to you. You'll need it.

Otherwise it's tough to know what you're doing. But if it's DD, whether your spreading 1-4 or 1-8, chances are you'd be reaching a 4 unit bet at TC+3. And TC+3 or better should happen alot more often than "rarely", like maybe 12% of the time.

And, if you're up to it, the same stuff for the other games you're playing.

The majority of casinos i visit (mostly local) are H17, dont offer surrender, DAS,split up to 4 times, and i use the revere +/-. My spread is from 1-6 units, With a TC of +1 if use 2 units, 3 i use 3, 5 i use 4, and anything higher varies on the situation. i rarely play 2 hands at a time (crowded tables usually prevent this). At most visits i play all, jumping in and out would be very suspicious with the frequency im there. Ill take a bathroom break or something if the count is very unfavorable. If im traveling, ill jump in at a positive count period. What i meant about "feeling confident" was depending on the table conditions ( no heat from pit bosses when i step my bet up, etc.)

 

[Kasi]

The majority of casinos i visit (mostly local) are H17, dont offer surrender, DAS,split up to 4 times, and i use the revere +/-. My spread is from 1-6 units, With a TC of +1 if use 2 units, 3 i use 3, 5 i use 4, and anything higher varies on the situation. i rarely play 2 hands at a time (crowded tables usually prevent this). At most visits i play all, jumping in and out would be very suspicious with the frequency im there. Ill take a bathroom break or something if the count is very unfavorable. If im traveling, ill jump in at a positive count period. What i meant about "feeling confident" was depending on the table conditions ( no heat from pit bosses when i step my bet up, etc.)

Thx. Is the Revere you use a level-1 Ace-neutral system? Seems like a bit low of a spread for a 6decker especially for play-all but I don't know Revere. 3 units at TC+3 & TC+4 seems a little low too. But I guess wonging out on negative counts or only "very unfavorable counts", whatever that is, might change some of that.

Maybe with a $5 min and $500 bankroll, sounds like in general some overbetting might be going on. You don't mention pnetration.