so it's just a little harder than i thought

[person1125]

OK - so i finally headed off to the casino to try my hand at counting. Well those of you that do it and do it easily have my respect. I think I kept the count for about 1 hand. Then I was adding up my hand and deciding what to do and forgot what I counted. (It was just me and dealer for almost 1/2 the shoe). Well needless to say I couldn't have told you the count even if you paid me. However I did play almost perfect BS - I made maybe 1-2 errors in the shoe (8 deck). My best hand was getting 2's vs 5. split the 2's got another ended up splitting to 4 hands and then got to double down on 2 of the hands - dealer busted and I won all 4 hands :grin: End result : bought in with $60 and walked away with $140 - was over $200 for a while. Overall a good learning session.

So it's back to more practice and to keep on trying.

 

[zengrifter]

OK - so i finally headed off to the casino to try my hand at counting. Well those of you that do it and do it easily have my respect. I think I kept the count for about 1 hand.

With practice/experience the first thing to go is that you will no longer add/total your hand - you'll just recognize the total without thought. zg

 

[QFIT]

Yeah, when you see a Ten and a Six; you don't think What's Ten + Six. You automatically think, I'm screwed and it doesn't even help the count.

 

[bluewhale]

Yeah, when you see a Ten and a Six; you don't think What's Ten + Six. You automatically think, I'm screwed and it doesn't even help the count.

lol. i find the biggest help to counting, is learning BS. and by that i mean what the others said... the 1-2 errors you mentioned in 1 shoe is waaaay too many, i'm talking 1-2 errors in maybe a weekend long trip in terms of BS. once u get that down, you'll find counting is a lot easier.

 

[person1125]

yeah i know

I know that the 1 - 2 was too many and they were stupid ones that during practice I know cold. One hand I couldn't believe my luck - had hard 16 vs dealer 10 up, I stood and dealer turned a 9 for a 19. I wanted to see what the next card was and if I would have won had I hit. Right at that time came a dealer change and the new dealer burned the next card, so I didn't get to see it. I'll just continue to drill and go back and see how i do.

 

[EasyRhino]

Since you had lost the count, standing on that 16 was a mistake in the first place. Should have surrendered or hit.

 

[shadroch]

Just takes practice. Lots and lots of practice.

 

[NDN21]

so it's

actually I believe that you tried to count under some of the more difficult circumstances, just you and the dealer.

Even some of the most experienced players have a difficult time counting when it's just them and the dealer.

Next time try you and about 3-4 other players.

(just between me and other experienced players, I have begun to notice that I am the only one who notices the small things?)

 

[person1125]

i kinda thought that heads up would be harder. If i am just watching a table with say 4 players i can stand and count ok. but since the heads up game is so much faster it was harder for me to do. next time i go i think i'll look for a table with more players, this should give me more time to count while they are making their playing decisions.

 

[EasyRhino]

One thing that helps slightly is to practice counting down a deck in threes.

But yeah, a slow-moving game is much easier. Get a few other people at the table, and I usually find things easier paced from third base.

 

[Mimosine]

One thing that helps slightly is to practice counting down a deck in threes.

But yeah, a slow-moving game is much easier. Get a few other people at the table, and I usually find things easier paced from third base.

i've only attempted counting 1 time so far and i tried all the bases, i found third to be the easiest. 1st was difficult for me, while there i didn't count the table until AFTER i played my hand. i just didn't feel confident enough in my BS at the time to be able to count the table quick and make a decision when the dealer turned to face me. maybe i could have, but i also didn't want to 'look' too stressed or too focused. lesson learned.

does anyone on here prefer a seat other than 3rd?

 

[EasyRhino]

I've come to appreciate the middle seats more, because the give me a better chance of having an open spot to either side of me where I can play two hands. However, it tends to look like I'm watching a tennis match as cards are being dealt (sigh).

 

[ChefJJ]

Last outing, I was at first base and really appreciated some of the benefits. I'd have to say that in that position, I was able to scan all of the cards without having to pivot (the tennis match analogy was good)...and I could look off often so I wasn't intently focused.

The downsides to 1st base was definitely in insurance situations where the count was close and the play was dictated by counting all the cards out there quickly. But nothing that couldn't be surmounted.

I prefer 3rd much more, but 1st is a close second to me.

good luck

 

[bluewhale]

i kinda thought that heads up would be harder. If i am just watching a table with say 4 players i can stand and count ok. but since the heads up game is so much faster it was harder for me to do. next time i go i think i'll look for a table with more players, this should give me more time to count while they are making their playing decisions.

one quick way to see if you can do it, is to find a heads up game, and just stand there and see if you can keep the count.

its always important to remember that even a bad counter can generally keep the count most of the time. but even if you mess up on one round out of 10, you're off. and that little error is all it takes to lose the edge. you shldn't be judging your skill based on your best counting attempts, you shld be scruitinizing your worst play. i know this sounds pessimistic, but thats what needs to be done if you want to see the money move your way. the good news is that once you get it, it feels reeeaaaalllllly good :eyepatch:

 

[Mimosine]

The downsides to 1st base was definitely in insurance situations where the count was close and the play was dictated by counting all the cards out there quickly. But nothing that couldn't be surmounted.

I prefer 3rd much more, but 1st is a close second to me.

from a new counter's perspective (using KO) third was great because you see the whole table, it was a little tricky when the count rose durring peoples decision making and i started thinking about index plays. again i think everyones advice about internalizing BS is crucial here. Keeping track of the chaninging count really never led to any index plays for me (probably cause i only played 4 hours, most of the time in negative counts, wonging out saved me here).

I was just stressed at first base, trying to fumble through the mechanics of should i count first, should i count after playing my hand, what is the best way to count etc... though i guess at first base you don't have to worry if the count is well below, or well above the pivot/key, you could just make your decisions based on the running count of the last hand. this should make my next effort less stressful. i hope.

 

[EasyRhino]

Yep, if I'm at first base and counting slowly, I'll go ahead and make my play, then continue counting everyone elses' hands at my leisure.

 

[Mimosine]

I've come to appreciate the middle seats more, because the give me a better chance of having an open spot to either side of me where I can play two hands. However, it tends to look like I'm watching a tennis match as cards are being dealt (sigh).

in really neg or pos counts couldn't you just count the hands as they are played (all cards dealt - don't count/ignore the overall table - focus directly on first base), count from your right to you to left, rather than the whole board then the hit cards (i.e. the tennis approach)?

that wouldn't be too suspcious (i think) as most players watch everyone elses' plays intently, usually as they are played.

in my first go, i also tried to "watch" some TV as the cards were being dealt out in a new round, or ordered a drink, or stared off at other tables/people. maybe my experimenting was too overzealous for my own good, but i really did try to give my first go a "whole system approach."

 

[ChefJJ]

from a new counter's perspective (using KO) third was great because you see the whole table, it was a little tricky when the count rose durring peoples decision making and i started thinking about index plays. again i think everyones advice about internalizing BS is crucial here. Keeping track of the chaninging count really never led to any index plays for me (probably cause i only played 4 hours, most of the time in negative counts, wonging out saved me here).

I was just stressed at first base, trying to fumble through the mechanics of should i count first, should i count after playing my hand, what is the best way to count etc... though i guess at first base you don't have to worry if the count is well below, or well above the pivot/key, you could just make your decisions based on the running count of the last hand. this should make my next effort less stressful. i hope.

I think you're on the right track. And definitely, BS should be second-nature. With KO, the index plays should be second-nature as well. Think about it...there are only 2 points at which you need to start deviating with KO; the key count and the pivot point (of course, a third would be the insurance play, but that is one below the PP).

To help with that, I modify my counting scale so that the KC is 0 regardless of how many decks I am playing with. Of course, you are starting your count at a really negative number in shoe games...but once you reach 0, you start changing your bet and make the first index play (stand on 16 v 10). Then, the PP is +8 for 6-deck and +10 for 8-deck. That's when all those other index plays come into effect, which are easy to memorize as well.

That's why I roll with KO, because I've customized it to where the count hits 0--the action begins. I am a player that gets to the casino once a month if I am lucky, so ease of a system beats out losing a little bit of an advantage with a "weaker" system. Of course, strength and weakness of a system is in the eye of the beholder.

good luck

 

[ihate17]

Positions

Third base is generally favored but you will find that the way cards are handled by a few dealers you will run into a problem seeing exactly what card busted a player at first base. Your view can be blocked partially or in other words, enough that someone at first base who busts by hitting a 13, you might not be sure if the bust card was a 9 or 10. It does not happen often but it is just the manner in which certain dealers handle cards and the shoe.
Then there is the false perception that you are controling the dealers hit card at third base. It is BS (bs does not mean basic strategy here) but if you are a bit meek, it could bother you because of the comments of other players. On the other hand, it could be easily looked at as an additional opportunity to thin out the table. Then there is a percieved advantage of making your hit/stand decision after seeing a few more cards. Not sure if this is of great value, probably worth something in single deck, but many think it is of value.

First base is a good position for certain kinds of hole card play. Lately, playing at a place that uses ASM's that tend to turn a few cards over in the shoe, I have also found the first few seats as the best places to see those cards through the partial coverings that this house has over its shoe. Recently I partially cleared a table during a good count by sitting there and hitting my 14 vs a dealer 5, because I could see a 6 coming. I get a 20, dealer turns a 4 for a total of 9 and hits a face to beat everyone but me. A couple of comments about my staying would have caused the dealer to bust, etc and a few less players in a shoe that turned out fairly good. Sometimes at first base you will find yourself partially blocked when the cut card is placed in the stack making it a little harder to estimate pen.

Middle positions. Play the middle positions once you have mastered looking at the table once and adjusting your count after everyone has their first two cards in a shoe game. When you do that you will never look like someone watching a tennis match. Then you just watch the hits one by one, which appears quite normal as most players do watch the hits taken by others. As stated before, the middle positions advantage is that it is easier to spread to a second hand if you wish. Certain middle positions are also good for hole card play.

ihate17

 

[ScottH]

I think you're on the right track. And definitely, BS should be second-nature. With KO, the index plays should be second-nature as well. Think about it...there are only 2 points at which you need to start deviating with KO; the key count and the pivot point (of course, a third would be the insurance play, but that is one below the PP).

To help with that, I modify my counting scale so that the KC is 0 regardless of how many decks I am playing with. Of course, you are starting your count at a really negative number in shoe games...but once you reach 0, you start changing your bet and make the first index play (stand on 16 v 10). Then, the PP is +8 for 6-deck and +10 for 8-deck. That's when all those other index plays come into effect, which are easy to memorize as well.

That's why I roll with KO, because I've customized it to where the count hits 0--the action begins. I am a player that gets to the casino once a month if I am lucky, so ease of a system beats out losing a little bit of an advantage with a "weaker" system. Of course, strength and weakness of a system is in the eye of the beholder.

good luck

Normally it's recommended that if you rarely go to the casino that you should use the a more powerful counting system to get the most out of your little table time. If you play more often, it can be better to play a slightly weaker (and easier) system because it will wear you down less, and help you get in more hours.

Although I think Ko=Hi-Lo, so even in your situation I would still use KO.