So what is the point?

WRBJ

Active Member
If no voodoo strategy can gain you money consitantly, and you have no advantage using one, then what is the point of even having these strategies? You would think if someone knew they didnt work that they would not use them, right?

Or is there some magical voodoo system that no one has found yet, that would work?
 

WRBJ

Active Member
Like what? Oscars?

I like how some people have made money with the different strategies. I dont think it would be worth the risk though right?
 

johndoe

Well-Known Member
None of them "work" in any timeframe. Sometimes people get lucky and win, even when at a disadvantage. There really is no other point to any of it.
 

Katweezel

Well-Known Member
Shot the messenger

tfg said:
Because some voodoo strategies do work, just not forever.
Yeah, such as (gasp!) certain progressions. (See Fredperson who got shot for this...) He had the gall to tell us of his 20 year streak with such a system.
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
WRBJ said:
If no voodoo strategy can gain you money consitantly, and you have no advantage using one, then what is the point of even having these strategies?...
The point to me is that, in general, they trade alot of small wins in exchange for a few large losses.

So, they can gain you money "consistently" even though they have no ultimate advantage.

Perhaps useful for increasing chances of not finishing a loser in a fixed amount of time.

For example, with a 500 unit roll, an Oscar Grind player might expect to win one unit 99.7+% of the time at a craps pass-line bet. The other 0.3% of the time he will lose his 500 unit roll. His total losses will equal HA*$bet over time.

He has exchanged a 99.7% chance of finishing ahead vs a 0.3% chance of losing all.
 

chitown

New Member
It's been proven thru computer simulation that betting systems don't win. However, those are long term results (millions of hands). Oscars Grind is a betting system that can win in the short term. What makes OG powerful is that a player can win money while losing more hands than the house.

To win at BJ the player needs to get decent cards. If your a card counter or OG player you still need decent cards to win money.
 

johndoe

Well-Known Member
chitown said:
It's been proven thru computer simulation that betting systems don't win. However, those are long term results (millions of hands). Oscars Grind is a betting system that can win in the short term. What makes OG powerful is that a player can win money while losing more hands than the house.

To win at BJ the player needs to get decent cards. If your a card counter or OG player you still need decent cards to win money.
Any bogus system "can" win in the short term; plenty of people who refuse to hit anything above 12 win money.

The difference is that, with OG like any other voodoo strategy, you can't "expect" to win, over the short or long run. You're just gambling.
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
johndoe said:
The difference is that, with OG like any other voodoo strategy, you can't "expect" to win, over the short or long run. You're just gambling.
Of course one is always "just gambling", just as one is while even playing with an avg +EV like, say, in BJ.

With OG, given what I said before, all one knows is one will and can expect to win one unit over 997 times out of 1000 times of trying to win that one unit.

So, for me, I actually probably would expect to win that one unit in my first series since I will win that one unit over 997 times of 1000.

Later, likely curse my luck, that the 3 times of 1000 I would lose my roll happened to actually occur on the first series lol.

The difference between this and some bozo playing crazy BS is only the percentage of time he can expect to be ahead with so many units as a roll playing for an amount of fixed time.

But, yes, I get your point it probably ain't a great system to use playing "forever" and agree you will most likely be behind when you are 10000 years old.

For a guy playing a week once a year in Vegas, likely with a replenishable roll for next year, say $2500, why not use it to increase chances of being ahead after one week at a $5 crap table? Perhaps better than some goofy AP guy playing-all at a crappy game with a 250 unit roll.

Like, maybe, you'd say the OG guy was just plain "lucky" but the underfunded AP guy was really "unlucky" after the former had come out ahead a few bucks and the latter had finished behind a few bucks behind in the same amount of time?

With whatever system one may choose to use, may one know, in the example above, who was actually the "luckier".

Either way, the broader point, never bet $1 without knowing what to expect for what you plan on doing and the risk one is exposing one's roll to.

I forgot to add the other night, whenever I pontificate on OG, the only reason I say what I do is due to Miplet's magnificent software (imho).

So, what I do say, is also based on simulation software I trust.

I hope noone ever thought for one second I was even possibly capable of doing anything other than re-gurgitating results from a sim.

I have invested the time of playing 1000's of spins at a random single-0roulette wheel that helped me to trust Miplet's software as some other thread will show.

Miplet is too modest to bother with this stuff but, personally, I absolutely love his software and thank him for expanding the possibilities of my voodoo horizons. And for FREE.

You guys here have absolutely no idea how difficult it is for me to wager $1 on anything without knowing, or at least thinking I know, what to expect lol. I'll play -EV games but I pass 3-card poker tables with pay-tables I'm not familiar with, VP machines with pay-tables I don't recognize, and, by extension, maybe don't feel I know a good-enough BS for that game, I am absolutely and utterly paralyzed and can't play until I know what I'm looking at.

But, now, thanks to Miplet, I have no problem whatsoever having fun on some 25 cents electronic single-0 roulette machine or craps machine.

It's a curse. And, maybe, a blessing.

As Monk might say lol.

You guys decide.
 

Licentia

Banned
WRBJ said:
If no voodoo strategy can gain you money consitantly, and you have no advantage using one, then what is the point of even having these strategies? You would think if someone knew they didnt work that they would not use them, right?

Or is there some magical voodoo system that no one has found yet, that would work?
Well sadly the majority of strategies that have been presented to you in the Voodoo forum are so pathetic they deserve to be here in this forum. Like betting in a certain order: $5 - $15 - $20 - $10 , etc.. These ideas are terribly rudimentary. There is no logic whatsoever to them working! Of course everyone has to start somewhere. People advance in knowledge, I certainly have.

I do encourage you to not be discouraged by such simple and bound to fail systems. There is much more to be found when one digs beneath the surface.

Licentia
 

Licentia

Banned
WRBJ said:
Like what? Oscars?

I like how some people have made money with the different strategies. I dont think it would be worth the risk though right?
I can easily explain to you WRBJ how no Voodoo systems will ever work. The authors of the BlackJack books and websites say no system will ever work. They also say it's only $59.99 for their new book which you can buy on their secure server, and it's only $19.99 a month for the "gold" membership to their site. Get out your credit card WRBJ! There is no other way!

Funny how even the latest BlackJack books say there is no other way to beat the casino and yet they fail to mention Dice Control in Craps which is a very well known way to beat a different casino game.

It's big business for them to convince you that there is no other way... It's always been that way and always will be so long as this world continues it's present course... It's good business to keep the public in the dark.

Licentia
 

Katweezel

Well-Known Member
The Game Killer

Not all are like that. Here are some quotes from the author of Beyond Counting, James Grosjean. From an interview with him, written by Michael Kaplan. (Here on this site.) Obviously JG holds different views...

.."But like a lot of carnival games, this one can be exploited."...

..."I realized there is nothing special about blackjack."...

..."Blackjack is a game where cards are supposed to be completely hidden by the casino dealers but, by their error, may not be. Many games fit that description."...

..."The new data gave him a 6 to 9 percent advantage and provided a real-world strategy.... During 60 days of hole-carding over 3 months, he made more than $35,000."...

..."These days, however, he regularly plays games where he attains upsides of 30 to 60 percent"...

..."You may have a 1.5% edge, but that's not enough. So many bad things can happen with that small of an advantage."...

... It's a modus operandi that has helped Grosjean and his crew to reap millions of dollars by playing stone-cold sucker games that include baccarat, three-card poker, pai gow poker and single-deck blackjack.
..
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
Licentia said:
I can easily explain to you WRBJ how no Voodoo systems will ever work.
Yep, that's pretty easy.

If one lives to how old to insure that, would you say?

How about you just as easily explain to me how likely it is and why that an OG pass-line-craps player with $500 at a min-max $1-$1000 full-person craps table will still be ahead 200 hours later? and how likley it is that he will become broke at some point during those 200 hours? and how likely it is he will do neither?

This could mean 7 years of a guy playing 4 hours a day for one week a year.

That was too easy. I'll make it even easier for you.

Same thing for an AP guy playing BJ. You pick the spread, game, count system, pen, assumptions etc with a 500 unit roll.

Is it any easier for you to answer the first question than the second just because the first has avg -EV but the second has avg + EV?

It's the same question after all.
 
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