Splitting Tens.

ScottH · May 7, 2006

I noticed there in Knockout Blackjack they never give any index for splitting tens. At what point is it profitable to split tens? Or should I just never split tens to avoid heat?

zengrifter · May 7, 2006

KO 'composite' for ScottH

Split 10s included. zg

-------------

KO 1-2D 'composite' for ScottH

Here are my approximated/composite-type 1-2D RC indices for KO:

(feel free to recommend improvements)

INS=+3

12 /2=+4, 3=+4, 4=IRC, 5=IRC, 6=IRC

13 /2=IRC, 3=IRC

15 /9=+9, 10=+4, A=+8

16 /9=+6, 10=KC, A=+7

8 /3=+8, 4=+6, 5=+4, 6=+4

9 /2=+4, 7=+4

10 /10=+4, A=+4

11 /10=IRC, A=KC

A6 /2=KC

A7 /2=KC

A8 /4=+4, 5=KC, 6=KC

A9 /5=+4, 6=+4

XX /5=+4, 6=+4

SUR:

88 /9=+2, 10=+2, A=+2

16 /8=+5, 9=0, 10=IRC, A=IRC

15 /8=+7, 9=+4, 10=0, A=+3

14 /10=+4, A=+5

ScottH · May 8, 2006

zengrifter said:
Split 10s included. zg

-------------

KO 1-2D 'composite' for ScottH

Here are my approximated/composite-type 1-2D RC indices for KO:

(feel free to recommend improvements)

INS=+3

12 /2=+4, 3=+4, 4=IRC, 5=IRC, 6=IRC

13 /2=IRC, 3=IRC

15 /9=+9, 10=+4, A=+8

16 /9=+6, 10=KC, A=+7

8 /3=+8, 4=+6, 5=+4, 6=+4

9 /2=+4, 7=+4

10 /10=+4, A=+4

11 /10=IRC, A=KC

A6 /2=KC

A7 /2=KC

A8 /4=+4, 5=KC, 6=KC

A9 /5=+4, 6=+4

XX /5=+4, 6=+4

SUR:

88 /9=+2, 10=+2, A=+2

16 /8=+5, 9=0, 10=IRC, A=IRC

15 /8=+7, 9=+4, 10=0, A=+3

14 /10=+4, A=+5

Thanks. Do you have anything for multiple decks?

**EDIT: To adjust these numbers for mulitple decks do you just add the difference in the IRC? Also, I noticed in the KO book some of the indexes for 6 and 8 decks it says "omit". Does that mean that they arent of value because the count never gets to that point?

"12 /2=+4, 3=+4, 4=IRC, 5=IRC, 6=IRC"

Ok, I read this as that you stand with 12 vs 2 and 3 at +4. But what does the 4=IRC, 5=IRC, 6=IRC mean?

zengrifter · May 8, 2006

ScottH said:
Thanks. Do you have anything for multiple decks?

**EDIT: To adjust these numbers for mulitple decks do you just add the difference in the IRC? Also, I noticed in the KO book some of the indexes for 6 and 8 decks it says "omit". Does that mean that they arent of value because the count never gets to that point?

"12 /2=+4, 3=+4, 4=IRC, 5=IRC, 6=IRC"

Ok, I read this as that you stand with 12 vs 2 and 3 at +4. But what does the 4=IRC, 5=IRC, 6=IRC mean?

I'm not sure how to calc the #s for 6D - I'll look into it. Can anyone else answer that?

Regarding 4=IRC that means your index 12vs4 is equal to your IRC (which is different depending on how may decks you're playing). zg

Canceler · May 9, 2006

zengrifter said:
I'm not sure how to calc the #s for 6D - I'll look into it. Can anyone else answer that?

I can't answer that, but you know I'm dying to know the answer!

Lists of indices have always been a little cryptic to me. Let me run something up the flagpole, and see if anyone shoots it down, to mix metaphors.

An index indicates a deviation from regular BS. Anyone who has gotten to the point of being interested in indices should not only know BS, but should be able to figure out what the deviation is.

For example: "12 /2=+4, 3=+4, 4=IRC, 5=IRC, 6=IRC" To me, this means at +4 or above we stand with 12 against 2 & 3. For the rest of it, standing is normal against 4,5,6. Doubling would be crazy, and nothing is said about the 12 being two sixes, so splitting is out. Therefore, at the IRC or lower, we hit 12 against 4,5,6.

Am I thinking about this correctly?

Mikeaber · May 9, 2006

Just a note that might clairify things a bit. With KO, if you are starting with the prescribed IRC, then +3 is always where you take Insurance. +4 is called the Pivot Point or PP. The Key Count or KC varies with the number of decks in play. So any time you see +4 in these tables, think of it as the Pivot.

Now, the way I would interpret these tables for any number of decks is that you would act the same according to the indices if the number is +4 or greater since that is the pivot (everything connected to the number of decks has been accounted for once the KC has been reached.) Of course it varies if the action is tied to the KC since that itself varies.

Obviously, I'm not an expert here....just someone with logic trying to apply it where it possibly shouldn't be applied.

zengrifter · May 9, 2006

Canceler said:
For example: "12 /2=+4, 3=+4, 4=IRC, 5=IRC, 6=IRC" To me, this means at +4 or above we stand with 12 against 2 & 3. For the rest of it, standing is normal against 4,5,6. Doubling would be crazy, and nothing is said about the 12 being two sixes, so splitting is out. Therefore, at the IRC or lower, we hit 12 against 4,5,6. - Am I thinking about this correctly?

No, double down. :joker: zg

zengrifter · May 9, 2006

Mikeaber said:
The Key Count or KC varies with the number of decks in play...

As does the IRC. zg

Canceler · May 10, 2006

Are you serious?

zengrifter said:
No, double down. :joker: zg

Now see, this is the sort of thing that sends people home crying! The joker smilie makes me think you're kidding. If you're just trying to mess with my mind, you've succeeded!

Sonny · May 12, 2006

Canceler said:
Now see, this is the sort of thing that sends people home crying! The joker smilie makes me think you're kidding. If you're just trying to mess with my mind, you've succeeded!

Ah, the Grifter's sarcasm turns another AP into a ploppy!:cry:

Yes Chanceler, your intuition is correct. When the count is low you will want to hit those twelves because you are more likely to get a small card on top of them instead of busting. You'll have to excuse ZG, he has a diabolical sense of humor...:whip:

-Sonny-

Canceler · May 13, 2006

Thanks, Sonny!

Sonny said:
Ah, the Grifter's sarcasm turns another AP into a ploppy!:cry:

Not quite, since I haven't doubled hard 12 yet.

Sonny said:
You'll have to excuse ZG, he has a diabolical sense of humor...:whip:

I noticed that!

But here's what caused me to have doubts about the whole thing. Dealers call out, "Doubling hard 12." Why? I had read that that's what they say instead of, "Hey, we've got a real idiot playing over here!" But then zg says double hard 12, so then I think, well maybe it is an AP play after all. (Since I believe every word zg says about blackjack.)

zengrifter · May 13, 2006

Canceler said:
...here's what caused me to have doubts about the whole thing. Dealers call out, "Doubling hard 12." Why? I had read that that's what they say instead of, "Hey, we've got a real idiot playing over here!"

The reason they call it out is because it causes an irregular dealer pattern in that they would be required to deal the double card face up (in a hand-held game) AND collect the bets and cards immediately with a bust. More often now they call out "Doubling on a breaking hand!"

Speaking of which, I've lost count of the number of times that I've doubled for less with 16v7, a trick I got from Fezik, and I will say that I've observed some very cunning high-stakes counters doubling on hard stiffs vs ANYTHING (with small bets out), so yes, it could be an AP camulflauge tactic. zg

ScottH · May 13, 2006

zengrifter said:
I've lost count of the number of times that I've doubled for less with 16v7

I also heard that mentioned in the interview. I am totally clueless on this one. Doubling on a 16 v7? Can you double for less for any amount?

zengrifter · May 13, 2006

ScottH said:
I also heard that mentioned in the interview. I am totally clueless on this one. Doubling on a 16 v7? Can you double for less for any amount?

Yes. But don't ever double for less it destroys the doubling EV. Double or hit. But never "for less". zg

ScottH · May 13, 2006

zengrifter said:
Yes. But don't ever double for less it destroys the doubling EV. Double or hit. But never "for less". zg

That doesn't explain the play of doubling for less with a 16v7...

zengrifter · May 13, 2006

ScottH said:
That doesn't explain the play of doubling for less with a 16v7...

Its an "idiot camoflauge" play. zg

Canceler · May 13, 2006

Aha!

zengrifter said:
The reason they call it out is because it causes an irregular dealer pattern in that they would be required to deal the double card face up (in a hand-held game) AND collect the bets and cards immediately with a bust. More often now they call out "Doubling on a breaking hand!"

That explains it. I had always wondered about that. Thanks, zg.

ScottH · May 13, 2006

zengrifter said:
Its an "idiot camoflauge" play. zg

Ah, so you make a really stupid play, but it wont cost you very much because you double for LESS. When you double for less do you bet the minimum?

I was talking to supercoolmancool on RV applications. I would really love to double down on a 20 knowing an ace was coming! That would be the ultimate camoflauge play.

zengrifter · May 13, 2006

ScottH said:
Ah, so you make a really stupid play, but it wont cost you very much because you double for LESS. When you double for less do you bet the minimum?

I was talking to supercoolmancool on RV applications. I would really love to double down on a 20 knowing an ace was coming! That would be the ultimate camoflauge play.

Don't double for less!

And if you knew the Ace was coming you'd know before the hand was dealt so you could bet big - if you know that one of your first two cards will be an Ace you have an advantage of 50%. zg

ScottH · May 13, 2006

zengrifter said:
Don't double for less!

And if you knew the Ace was coming you'd know before the hand was dealt so you could bet big - if you know that one of your first two cards will be an Ace you have an advantage of 50%. zg

If I want to be just like you I will have to double for less everytime I have a 16v7! :joker:

Splitting Tens.

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