Stand on 16 vs. 10 with three or more cards

[WABJ11]

I was reading on Wizard of Odds that their are a few exception to basic strategy with 2-8 decks. One that stood out at me was standing a 3 or more card 16 vs a dealer 10. After learning this I always utilized this exception.

But I have found that this Basic Strategy play is unknown among casino patrons, even players who otherwise play perfect BS. And at higher limits I almost always get yelled at for not hitting my 3 card 16 vs a dealer 10. How come this easy to remember play is nonexistent among BS players?

 

[QFIT]

This play was in the default basic strategy when I created my software 17 years ago. I dropped it because people constantly told me the software was wrong and I got tired of explaining that this is the correct play.

Actually, you stand if three or more cards or if the product of a split. The difference in EV is only 0.002%.

This is covered on Modern Blackjack page 56.

 

[pogostick]

I know , its dam if you do a dam if you don't, but you should hit . I read a book years ago saying ,not even with a gun at his head would he hit a hard 12.You see what has happened to that theory? Stick with BS & learn to count,then the moves will be automatic. POGO

 

[creeping panther]

Wab

I was reading on Wizard of Odds that their are a few exception to basic strategy with 2-8 decks. One that stood out at me was standing a 3 or more card 16 vs a dealer 10. After learning this I always utilized this exception.

But I have found that this Basic Strategy play is unknown among casino patrons, even players who otherwise play perfect BS. And at higher limits I almost always get yelled at for not hitting my 3 card 16 vs a dealer 10. How come this easy to remember play is nonexistent among BS players?

Hand composition is very important,,when used in conjunction with Skillz.

Forget the other players, they mean nothing to you. If they run their mouth on you run yours back...remember a bully will keep shoving till he/she is shoved back.

CP

 

[shadroch]

BS is for your first two cards vs the dealers card.

 

[Canceler]

BS is for your first two cards vs the dealers card.

I’m pretty sure that’s only because the usual BS charts don’t lend themselves to showing a 3-card hand.

The “3-card 16 vs. T” rule would have to be in a footnote, which few people would read.

The charts on this site give the information by implication, but only if you look at a surrender chart. 16 vs. T is shown as “RS”, which causes a lot of people to say “WTF?”

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

Not only that, but even most of the "BS" players you encounter at the tables do not know proper BS for that game. Most people that think they know BS have at least a few hands that they're not sure or just plain wrong about.

 

[tribute]

But I have found that this Basic Strategy play is unknown among casino patrons, even players who otherwise play perfect BS. And at higher limits I almost always get yelled at for not hitting my 3 card 16 vs a dealer 10. How come this easy to remember play is nonexistent among BS players?

Standing on a three card 16 is also addressed in Blackjack Bluebook II by Fred Renzey. This and other "advanced" basic strategy plays were also not known to me before reading the informative book. Another play that always brings jeers from dealers and fellow players is hitting a 12 vs dealer 4 up when the twelve contains a 10 and 2. (Dr. Pepper Rule)

I have found that most basic strategy charts and books do not give information on three-card hands, probably the reason for basic strategy players being clueless. It's also on a very rare occasion that I see a basic strategy player execute perfectly, anyway.

 

[pogostick]

I was reading on Wizard of Odds that their are a few exception to basic strategy with 2-8 decks. One that stood out at me was standing a 3 or more card 16 vs a dealer 10. After learning this I always utilized this exception.

But I have found that this Basic Strategy play is unknown among casino patrons, even players who otherwise play perfect BS. And at higher limits I almost always get yelled at for not hitting my 3 card 16 vs a dealer 10. How come this easy to remember play is nonexistent among BS players?

wabj11 Do you count? If so , then it would depend on how many face cards are left but, that goes with a 2 card 16 also. If there is a wealth of small cards, I will hit 13 vs 3 or 4 some times . It all depends on the count. I still say keep it simple & use BS and don't play third base. POGO

 

[Mr. T]

This subject has been dealt with at length by many including Ken and Renzey.You want to read in particular with interest the detail text by Renzey

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=17164

There are (I think) 48 combinations of 2, 3 and 4 card 16's.
At the purely basic strategy level, you're instructed to just always hit 16 against a 10, although many 16's against a 10 should actually be stood on.
At a slightly deeper level of play, you're a smidge better off to hit the 2-card 16 and stand on all 3 or more card 16's, although, some 3 and even 4 card 16's should actually still be hit.
At yet a slightly deeper level, you should play all your 16's against a 10 according to the "Rule of 45". That means to stand with your 16 if it contains a 4 or a 5, but hit all the rest. Aside from the mathematics behind this rule, the rationale is that a 4 or 5 in your hand leaves one less key "out" available to make 20 or 21 with. Of those 48 or so iterations of 2, 3 and 4 card 16's, the "Rule of 45" will get you to play nearly all of them correctly.
Some examples are to stand against a 10 with the likes of 8/5/3, 9/4/3, 7/5/4, 8/4/4 and A/4/A/10, but to still hit with stuff like 7/6/3, 8/2/6 and even A/6/8/A.

 

[QFIT]

Basically, if you have 16vT, you're screwed.

 

[pooptarts92]

quick question, if you have a multi (more than 2) card 16 vs a ten in SINGLE deck should you still hit? or stand?

 

[Renzey]

At yet a slightly deeper level, you should play all your 16's against a 10 according to the "Rule of 45". That means to stand with your 16 if it contains a 4 or a 5, but hit all the rest.

For basic strategy players, there's a still deeper level of play for 16 vs. 10 without going into actual card counting. It's called the "Rule of 455". It means that you stand with any 16 vs. 10 if there is at least one 4 or 5 on board for every five exposed cards (including your own hand and the dealer's up-card). In essence, it's a "freeze-frame" snipet of card counting that tailors its focus to the key cards for that hand.
Thus, you would still hit 8/5/3 vs. 10 if there were many other non-4's or 5's on board -- and you would still stand with 10/6 vs. 10 if the other cards on board were something like 5/7/9, 4/2 and 8/8.

You often see ploppies hesitate with their hands (any hand), look at the cards on board, then go ahead and make a decision based on what they've seen. But they have no idea what they should be looking for. This has genuine merit, albeit very small. Remember however, that 16 vs. 10 in all its forms comes up about once every 20 minutes.

 

[FLASH1296]

Pulleeze excuse my sesquipedalian* tendencies.

A truly impressive exemplary post by Renzey.

A perfect precis* of the contextually correct Basic Strategy play,
almost always bowdlerized* to "stand with a three card sixteen."

=======================================

* bowdlerized:

to remove material from a text, esp. with the result that it becomes weaker or less effective

*precis:

A summary, synopsis, abstract, outline, summation; abridgment, digest, overview, etc.

*sesquipedalian:

Characterized by long words; long-winded

 

[monte_vv]

Basically, if you have 16vT, you're screwed.

Best response yet, and since I count, I just let the count dictate.

 

[WABJ11]

Best response yet, and since I count, I just let the count dictate.

Yes the count dictates. But when the count is **** you want to make the correct play based on BS.

I'm still lost here. So I stand on my 8 5 3, but I hit my 772 assuming no other 4's or 5's on the board?

 

[QFIT]

Yes the count dictates. But when the count is **** you want to make the correct play based on BS.

I'm still lost here. So I stand on my 8 5 3, but I hit my 772 assuming no other 4's or 5's on the board?

If you are counting, you play by the count.