At the advice of our mutual friend who just graduated from UCSB I read your page on SF21. You know me as LAPPER on the bj21 boards. I am very impressed by your analysis of Super Fun 21 and am thinking of trying to play it at one of the local Indian casinos. I'm sure that Harrah's at Rincon offers this game. I have no problem spreading 1 - 20 and according to your analysis that makes the game beatable. I have just one question for you about the counts you recommend. Both KO and UBZII are counts that assign a negative value to the Ace. Since SF21 is a game where most blackjacks pay even money wouldn't it make more sense to use an Ace neutral count like Hi-Opt I?
Super Fun 21
- Thread starter Lapper
- Start date
I just answered my own question, by looking at your EoR table. Since removal of aces is still -.3 or so it still makes sense to count it as negative. It looks like a good count for this game would be Wong's Complete Halves count, because it not only counts the ace as negative but assigns a -1/2 to the nine also, which fits in nicely with your EoR table. The problem with that count is that it is a level three count requiring you to remember three different numbers for different cards, thereby making it very difficult to master, especially under high speed conditions. So, your recommendation of KO or UBZII looks pretty good to me.
I just came across a balanced count that seems to match up better with your EoR table than UBZ11 or KO. It is called the Silver Fox count and it is basically KO except you assign a -1 to the nine, making KO a balanced count. Since this is a level one count it would be easier to keep than UBZ11 or Wong's Halves count, and in single deck you really do not have to do true count conversion, so that advantage of KO really doesn't exist. I imagine that since just about every count I've ever seen adds 0.5% for each +1, that for this count the critical number would be +3 just like KO and because of the assignment of -1 to the nine, I would anticipate that a simulation using this count would yield a higher betting correlation than KO or UBZII.
I do not have the software to run that simulation to prove my point, but if I am correct adding one number to the KO count that you already know doesn't seem too hard and may be worth the effort.
I do not have the software to run that simulation to prove my point, but if I am correct adding one number to the KO count that you already know doesn't seem too hard and may be worth the effort.
zengrifter
Banned
CCCafe search archive has 30+ SF21 posts, this site has 10+ - figure that for SFox count INSTEAD of +/- 0.5% perTC, shave that to +/- 0.33% - Halves is OUT, but a neutralAce count like HO1-2 or RAPM OR a compromisedAce count like UBZ or ZEN would work well... AND YES with a 1-20 spread (assuming sufficient pene of at least 60% AND a mastery of the correct SFBS) WILL get the money.
On a related note, it took them all year to catch-up, but neither Fiesta will any longer allow the LVA 3-1 coupon to play at SF21. zg
On a related note, it took them all year to catch-up, but neither Fiesta will any longer allow the LVA 3-1 coupon to play at SF21. zg
phantom007
Well-Known Member
I would vote "YES".
That is, Yes to an "ace-neutral" count. But keep a side-count of Aces. Since an Ace-10 still equals 21 in this game (and in most places, all Diamonds still equals BJ), a deck rich in Ace's is probably advantageous, especially when also Positive.
Further, if one DD's 11, and draws an Ace, One can always surrender.
Some of the "math folk" can hopefully give your post more precise answers to your question.
I played SF21 once as a "ploppy" last year, but plan to "study up" before my next LV trip in Feb. Seems a whole lot like LV Club's Liberal 6D game, which pays 3:2 on all BJ's, but does not have "Surrender after DD" option. Both games are certainly "Fun"...I am not sure either is "SuperFun".
Of interest, at least to me, SF21 has just appeared in Tunica...one table at the Sheraton (a Ceasar's Property). There it is called "Fun 21", and has all of the same rules, the best I can tell. The table is always full, so I have just watched a few hands. They do not have the cute little rule cards available in the corner of the table like LV SF21...I suspect they are offering the game without paying royalties...they have a "cheap" little sign in the right corner anouncing "Fun 21", and another "cheap" placard in the other corner listing the rules. When I say cheap, I mean the type a hardware store would engrave for you for $3.00 + tax.
Certainly, if SF21 stays around permanently, then OCKO's work will likely become the Thorpe of the game. Likewise, if you are a Green Chipper on bj21.com, then Mr. LVBear has some interesting posts on this game.
Good cards, and Super Fun!
That is, Yes to an "ace-neutral" count. But keep a side-count of Aces. Since an Ace-10 still equals 21 in this game (and in most places, all Diamonds still equals BJ), a deck rich in Ace's is probably advantageous, especially when also Positive.
Further, if one DD's 11, and draws an Ace, One can always surrender.
Some of the "math folk" can hopefully give your post more precise answers to your question.
I played SF21 once as a "ploppy" last year, but plan to "study up" before my next LV trip in Feb. Seems a whole lot like LV Club's Liberal 6D game, which pays 3:2 on all BJ's, but does not have "Surrender after DD" option. Both games are certainly "Fun"...I am not sure either is "SuperFun".
Of interest, at least to me, SF21 has just appeared in Tunica...one table at the Sheraton (a Ceasar's Property). There it is called "Fun 21", and has all of the same rules, the best I can tell. The table is always full, so I have just watched a few hands. They do not have the cute little rule cards available in the corner of the table like LV SF21...I suspect they are offering the game without paying royalties...they have a "cheap" little sign in the right corner anouncing "Fun 21", and another "cheap" placard in the other corner listing the rules. When I say cheap, I mean the type a hardware store would engrave for you for $3.00 + tax.
Certainly, if SF21 stays around permanently, then OCKO's work will likely become the Thorpe of the game. Likewise, if you are a Green Chipper on bj21.com, then Mr. LVBear has some interesting posts on this game.
Good cards, and Super Fun!
If you shave the advantage to .33% per +1 of TC than the critical point for getting the money becomes +4 rather than +3 as I said. I think that you would certainly need good penetration and not too many other players at the table to see enough +4 or better opportunities to make it worthwhile. Hopefully, most people still see this game as an oddity, so that knowledgeable players can find tables that provide the right conditions.