Team Play Contracts

[Memphis10Tigers]

I hope I'm not wearing out my welcome here by starting a new thread, but I have been living and breathing BJ lately.

My question is in regards to forming a legal contract for team play. I have ZERO expertise in law, and ZERO experience in practical card counting, so I could be asking a ridiculous question here. I also used the search function on here and found no information.

Would a contract stipulating obligations, terms, conditions (whatever legal jargon you want to use) regarding team play be enforceable by a court of law in the USA? Would it be practical? Anyone ever considered it?

 

[moo321]

First, I would recommend that you understand business incorporations. Know the difference between a sole proprietorship, partnership, LLC, LLP, C corporation and S corporation, so you can pick the best format for your team.

Partnerships and LLC's are typically the best way to run a team, depending on the size, number of investors, etc.


If you signed a contract, and it wasn't somehow unenforceable (you weren't of the state of mind to sign a contract, it involved illegal conduct, etc.) I would imagine that a court would enforce it.

 

[Memphis10Tigers]

First, I would recommend that you understand business incorporations. Know the difference between a sole proprietorship, partnership, LLC, LLP, C corporation and S corporation, so you can pick the best format for your team.

Partnerships and LLC's are typically the best way to run a team, depending on the size, number of investors, etc.


If you signed a contract, and it wasn't somehow unenforceable (you weren't of the state of mind to sign a contract, it involved illegal conduct, etc.) I would imagine that a court would enforce it.

Wow...heavy stuff. I didn't realize teams were that sophisticated. I had always assumed they were informal arrangements and have read horror stories of people breaking their agreements. I assume incorporating into some form of business mitigates this to an extent.

 

[moo321]

Wow...heavy stuff. I didn't realize teams were that sophisticated. I had always assumed they were informal arrangements and have read horror stories of people breaking their agreements. I assume incorporating into some form of business mitigates this to an extent.

Incorporating won't protect your from dishonesty. It may give you some recourse, but if the money is gone, the money is gone. There is little you can do to protect yourself against dishonest people in this business.

 

[Sucker]

Would a contract stipulating obligations, terms, conditions (whatever legal jargon you want to use) regarding team play be enforceable by a court of law in the USA?

Yes. Unfortunately, I had an investor/BP once who refused to pay me my share of the winnings; I was forced to sue. His claim of defense was that because gambling is illegal in the state in which he lives;the contract itself is illegal.
The judge ruled in MY favor; he paid up.

Would it be practical?

In my case; the person had millions of dollars in provable assets. I would suppose that if it were someone who had no assets, you would merely be trying to squeeze blood from a turnip.

Anyone ever considered it?

See the first answer.

Bottom line: Find someone who has a reputation for honesty and/or fairness. I myself have had the MOST success with nothing more than a handshake & a gentleman's agreement.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

It depends on who you are playing with. If you are playing with people you know and trust then you could play without a contract, but if you are getting outside investors and/or playing with other people then you would want a contract but you don't need to register as a business.

 

[zengrifter]

IWould a contract stipulating obligations, terms, conditions (whatever legal jargon you want to use) regarding team play be enforceable by a court of law in the USA? Would it be practical? Anyone ever considered it?

Yes, yes, and yes. zg

 

[blackjacktilt]

I hope I'm not wearing out my welcome here by starting a new thread, but I have been living and breathing BJ lately.

My question is in regards to forming a legal contract for team play. I have ZERO expertise in law, and ZERO experience in practical card counting, so I could be asking a ridiculous question here. I also used the search function on here and found no information.

Would a contract stipulating obligations, terms, conditions (whatever legal jargon you want to use) regarding team play be enforceable by a court of law in the USA? Would it be practical? Anyone ever considered it?

My advice is retain the services of close friends and / family.

 

[Memphis10Tigers]

My advice is retain the services of close friends and / family.

None of my friends or family know how to count cards. Many of them do not even understand basic strategy (they consider not busting to be "conservative play" as opposed to the "riskier" strategies I take).

At any rate, as my skills in card counting improve, I am hoping to begin networking with other APs in my area.

 

[matt21]

I hope I'm not wearing out my welcome here by starting a new thread, but I have been living and breathing BJ lately.

My question is in regards to forming a legal contract for team play. I have ZERO expertise in law, and ZERO experience in practical card counting, so I could be asking a ridiculous question here. I also used the search function on here and found no information.

Would a contract stipulating obligations, terms, conditions (whatever legal jargon you want to use) regarding team play be enforceable by a court of law in the USA? Would it be practical? Anyone ever considered it?

Hi Memphis - I think you are putting the cart before the horse - you are asking about team contracts when you have zero practical experience in counting!

In any case, contracts would be enforceable unless they are deemed to be illegal - since card counting is legal - the contract would be most likely be enforceable from that perspective. That said the main reason for drawing up a contract should probably be to clarify that all team members are on the same page, and to avoid misunderstandings, rather than intended to be used as a tool in litigation. Thus for the clarification reason they are quite practical.

Unfortunately having an agreement still does not get around the trust/honesty issue. But as time goes on you will make come across AP's that you will find suitable for forming a team.

Good luck,
Matt21

 

[Memphis10Tigers]

Hi Memphis - I think you are putting the cart before the horse - you are asking about team contracts when you have zero practical experience in counting!

In any case, contracts would be enforceable unless they are deemed to be illegal - since card counting is legal - the contract would be most likely be enforceable from that perspective. That said the main reason for drawing up a contract should probably be to clarify that all team members are on the same page, and to avoid misunderstandings, rather than intended to be used as a tool in litigation. Thus for the clarification reason they are quite practical.

Unfortunately having an agreement still does not get around the trust/honesty issue. But as time goes on you will make come across AP's that you will find suitable for forming a team.

Good luck,
Matt21

I have no intentions of starting or joining a team right now, but I would like to meet some APs and learn from them. It was really more that my curiosity was piqued at the concept of forming a legitimate business of card counters.

 

[zengrifter]

It depends on who you are playing with. If you are playing with people you know and trust then you could play without a contract.

Dye, There is ALWAYS a "contract", but if you mean a "written/signed agreement"
that reflects the contract's intent, its ALWAYS wise to have one in ANY business. zg

 

[zengrifter]

My advice is retain the services of close friends and / family.

Why would you presume that "close friends and family" would have any
more experience/knowledge with contracts and agreements than the OP? zg

 

[moo321]

Basically, any time there is a business going on, unless you state otherwise, the business is considered to be a partnership, and subject to certain assumptions. For example, it is generally assumed that everyone will share equally in the profits, and are each liable for the debts of the partnership.

A partnership is the "default".

 

[zengrifter]

Basically, any time there is a business going on, unless you state otherwise, the business is considered to be a partnership, and subject to certain assumptions. For example, it is generally assumed that everyone will share equally in the profits, and are each liable for the debts of the partnership.

A partnership is the "default".

I never knew that! zg

 

[Memphis10Tigers]

I have no intentions of starting or joining a team right now, but I would like to meet some APs and learn from them. It was really more that my curiosity was piqued at the concept of forming a legitimate business of card counters.

Just for giggles, what would you imagine the reaction to employers' be if you had something along the lines of the following on your resume???:

Advantage Play LLP (2011 - XXXX)
- Scouted and identified profitable opportunities for advantage play in the casino gaming industry
- Devised and implemented technical strategies to obtain and retain consistent profitability
- Collaborated with teammates to maximize opportunities presented in advantage play
- Increased stakeholder wealth by XX amount (XX%) over XX time period

 

[moo321]

Just for giggles, what would you imagine the reaction to employers' be if you had something along the lines of the following on your resume???:

Advantage Play LLP (2011 - XXXX)
- Scouted and identified profitable opportunities for advantage play in the casino gaming industry
- Devised and implemented technical strategies to obtain and retain consistent profitability
- Collaborated with teammates to maximize opportunities presented in advantage play
- Increased stakeholder wealth by XX amount (XX%) over XX time period

From secondhand reports, this usually doesn't fly. Better off saying you ran an investment company or something.

 

[moo321]

I never knew that! zg

Basically, if it's a one person business, it defaults to a sole proprietorship, while if there are others involved, it defaults to a partnership.

"By definition, a partnership is a business with more than one owner that has not filed papers with the state to become a corporation or LLC (limited liability company)" http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/partnership-basics-30072.html

 

[Automatic Monkey]

The best way to ensure honesty is to make it undefined as to exactly how far you will take it if someone is dishonest! :flame: Could be anything from earning your disdain, to Keyser Soze. :gun:

Even if I were inclined to be dishonest, I'd decline to do it to an AP because I assume anyone I play with is equally honest but also as capable of anything I am, and I would not consider a physical, mental, or legal confrontation with any AP to be +EV.