Texas Hold 'Em - Any Two Cards Can Win.

[cardcounter0]

Sometimes low limit games break out into what I call “on/off” games. One hand the entire table limps in, the next hand it is folded around and the blinds chop. Or 6 or 7 players go crazy and it is capped 6-ways preflop, and then on the next hand, folded around to the button, who raises and steals the blinds. On/Off.

Makes it kind of hard for hand selection. Suited connectors in mid position after a limper, they might be nice to play at a weak/passive, everyone else limps in to see the flop table, but if the wind suddenly changes direction and you find yourself getting raised and then re-raised by the tightest player at the table -- not so nice. Are you going to get 9 limpers, or is it going to fold around, and you are heads-up facing a cut-off raise? Tough choices.

Here is a situation that you can think about. You are in the Big Blind, the first player to act preflop raises. He proceeds to get his raise called by the next 5 players. A couple of folds, the small blind folds, and with the action on you, you look at your cards. 9 of Spades, and 5 of Hearts. Good ol' 95o. So do you call the raise?

Your choices:

A) Get up and leave immediately. With so many players seeing every flop, playing any two, and calling anything with anything, even AA gets cracked the majority of the time. This game cannot be beat. Besides, you had to tip the valet $2 to park your car, there is no way you can come out ahead.

B) Fold. Wait for a really good hand and then punish these limping calling stations, when you finally enter the pot with a raise.

C) Call. It is possible for any two cards to win. Maybe that miracle flop will come and 95o will be the best hand.

D) Re-Raise. It will be fun to bluff that huge pot away from 6 players.

Most situations in poker the answer is "it depends", but in this case I think there is a correct answer that can be shown mathematically.

The answer is (C) - Call the raise, and pray for the miracle flop.

Usually, in a UTG raise and multiple caller situation like this, you are up against a big pocket pair, and you have AK or AQ calling, and out of 6 players somebody is overplaying JTs, and a couple of random hands. It is going to take at least two pair at a minimum to take this pot down. So given you need to flop at least two pair or better to stay in the hand:

.0204 Two pair (using both of your pocket cards) - 49/1
.0137 Trips (using one of your pocket cards) - 73/1
.0009 Full house (using both of your pocket cards) - 1087/1
.0001 Quads (using one of your pocket cards) - 9799/1
=====
.0351 - chances of getting two pair or better and continue with hand.

Now sometimes, your two pair is going to get beat with top set, or gets beat on the river by a bigger two pair, straight, flush, etc. But for simplicity let's say the times you continue and get beat balances out with the times AA cannot lay down, or you get raised and re-raised after flopping the nuts.

There are 6 players in for 2 small bets, the small blind has folded for half a bet, your big blind is already in. You are getting 13.5 to 1 to call the raise. So basically that .0351 number means out of 100 times for this situation, 97 times you are going to call the raise, see the flop, and fold. 3 times you hit the flop hard and are going to win a pot (let's throw the .0051 from your .0351 chances of hitting away to add some more padding to the times you hit the flop but still fold later in the hand, and just call it .03).

Let's do some math (although this is kind of like playing "what if" to determine basic strategy) $2/$4 No Fold ‘Em Hold ‘Em Donkey low limit:
97 folds x $4 call of the raise = -$388 down the drain.
3 times you hit a flop with 2 pair or better. You naturally check. UTG raiser bets, the 5 callers do what they do and call (no one folding with that large of a pot for just another $4). You pull the check raise. One guy decides to fold. The Turn, you bet, another folder. The River, you bet, two more folds.

preflop (6 callers + SB) = $25
flop (5 callers of the check raise, 1 limper folds) = $22
turn (4 callers of $4, 1 fold) = $16
river (2 callers, 2 folds) = $8
=====
$71 - $4 rake - $1 dealer toke = $66 profit.

3 x $66 = $198 - $388 for the 97 folds when you miss = -$190 loss playing "how can you call with that crap" 9 of Spades, and 5 of Hearts.

So as you can see, calling with any two unsuited in this situation results in a loss of $190 per 100 hands – so calling with any two is obviously the thing to do.

 

[callipygian]

So as you can see, calling with any two unsuited in this situation results in a loss of $190 per 100 hands – so calling with any two is obviously the thing to do.

... when you're in the Big Blind and already have $2/hand in. This also implies you should not be playing any two from the small blind or any other hand.

Assuming this is a continuation of the other thread (whose negative points I won't bring up unless you do), this also suggests a way to squeeze an extra $0.10 per big blind out of standard play - which, at 40 hands per hour, is equal to a $0.40 increase in hourly win rate, or 0.1 BB/hr, over whatever tight-aggressive play.

 

[cardcounter0]

This also implies you should not be playing any two from the small blind or any other hand.

That is probably correct. But you can play any two SUITED from the small blind in a similar situation, or you can play any two suited from the big blind with only 5 callers instead of 6 as in this situation.

So a couple of situations that add a few tenth's of a BB to the old win rate, profit that a standard play 15% of your hands "tight" player is leaving on the table.

 

[ChefJJ]

Thanks for answering your own quiz question in the same post. Sounds like you're just trying to show someone up...be bigger than that. It's the internet.

good luck

 

[cardcounter0]

I gave my answer or opinion with analysis to a common low limit $2/$4 hold em situation: You are in the big blind with complete trash, and over half the table has called a preflop raise.

Do you agree? Disagree?

I think if you accept my answer, it could apply to other situations also. ie: the entire table shows a tendency to never fold and just call to a preflop raise. If someone raises preflop in early position, you might consider also calling with very marginal hands, simply because you know you are going to end up with 10:1 odds and no chance of someone 3-betting.

Again, a typical "tight" player might be throwing away potentially profitable hands, failing to take into account the no-fold-em table's implied odds.

 

[callipygian]

If someone raises preflop in early position, you might consider also calling with very marginal hands, simply because you know you are going to end up with 10:1 odds

10:3 odds - two of the units that were put in pre-flop would have been yours and put in after the decision has been made. You have to factor that into the decision when deciding whether to call preflop at all.

It's true that given you have already called pre-flop, you have tremendous odds on calling/betting/raising from that point forward. What's not true is that it justifies playing any two cards preflop. Unless you define "very marginal hands", there's no way to tell what you really mean. Are you talking ATo, 98o, or 73o?

 

[cardcounter0]

10:3 odds - two of the units that were put in pre-flop would have been yours and put in after the decision has been made. You have to factor that into the decision when deciding whether to call preflop at all.?

If the entire table is likely to call a raise, and they all do call the raise, then using common terminology you are getting 10:1 for your money. 10 for 1 or 9 to 1. Unless you are playing in California, where it is more common for a full table to be 9 handed. Then you would be getting 9 for 1 or 8 to 1. (and you know you will be getting at least 10 more units in the pot post flop, as they are all going to at least call a bet there too.)

10:3 is kind of an "interesting" way to look at it, I guess when they say "blackjack pays 3:2" that really isn't true either, because you really don't have to play at all.

What's not true is that it justifies playing any two cards preflop.

Ahhh... Very true my obtuse little grasshopper. Maybe that is why I said "playing very mariginal hands" instead of "playing any two cards". Of course, you will take the phrase "very mariginal" to mean "any two cards" and try to argue that I am wrong because I am talking about "any two cards" ... be my guest. Although that is kind of unreasonable don't you think? I said "Marginal". It makes you wonder how wide the Margins are if they include ALL cards. I even qualifyied the width of the Margins ... VERY MARGINAL.

Unless you define "very marginal hands", there's no way to tell what you really mean.

Yes, I failed to post an EXACT hand range. Care to give it a shot? Maybe posting a hand range of profitable calling hands for this situation would be more productive instead of quibbling over semantics, don't you think? Of course such an EXACTITUDE would be impossible, as you would have to factor in exactly how likely it is the whole table will call, and the unlikelyhood of not running into a 3-bettor.

 

[callipygian]

I guess when they say "blackjack pays 3:2" that really isn't true either, because you really don't have to play at all.

3 = the amount you win when you win
2 = the amount you lose when you lose

3:2

9 people call with x bets each = 9x units you win if you win
you call with x bets = 1x units you lose if you lose

9:1

5 people with 2 bets each = 10 units you win if you win
you call 2 bets = 2 units you put in preflop if you lose
you bet at least 1 unit on the flop = 1 unit you bet on the flop

10:3

It did just occur to me, though, that when you said 10:1 I automatically assumed that it meant the last scenario - 5 people calling a raise, you calling with 2 preflop, and that you were getting 10:1 on your post-flop bet. However, based on your response, I think you may still be talking pre-flop, in which case you're actually saying that EVERYONE at the table calls a preflop raise (which would give you 9:1, not 10:1, but we'll let that slide as general dumbassery along the lines of "1 BB in $4/$8 is $16").

If that is what you meant, I certainly agree that you're getting 9:1 odds - what I question is how often that situation occurs. Even in the loosest, most passive games, you rarely get more than 8 to the flop without raises. You're making assumptions based on 10 to the flop including a preflop raise! That really doesn't need any debunking, other than "anyone who's ever played a hand of LLHE is :laugh: at you right now."

Yes, I failed to post an EXACT hand range. Care to give it a shot? Maybe posting a hand range of profitable calling hands for this situation would be more productive instead of quibbling over semantics, don't you think?

Post it then - this is your show-off thread, not mine.

Let's see the "very marginal" hands you advocate playing.

It will be good for a laugh, I'm sure. You should have stuck with your first post, it was a good example of what you know.

For the record, post the number of hours you've spent playing LLHE in your lifetime. You are free to define LL however you like, just be unambiguous.

 

[cardcounter0]

I haven't played $2/$4 anywhere in the past 8 years

Are you really qualified to comment on this thread? Actually, in low limit hold em being played THIS CENTURY, there is a tendency for your average donkey table to be MORE LIKELY to have 10 to a flop when there is a preflop raise.

It seems it is almost a threat to their manhood, or they just love the thrill of cracking somebodies Aces, but a lot of players will call a raise with cards they would normally fold if the pot was unraised.

If you had played low limit hold em this decade, weren't a 100 hour n00b, or was actually skilled enough to know what was going on at the table, you would notice this.

I guess your inability to grasp the concept of someone raising in early position, and you -- later to act -- realizing that the whole table is going to call that raise, can count on getting 10 for 1 odds -- Your almost autistic ability to get distracted with insignificent minuta, would make this an impossible task. I'll just chalk it up to general dumbassery on your part.

 

[callipygian]

Are you really qualified to comment on this thread?

Right now, the experience that I've posted is 33x what you've posted. Ignoring my direct question about how much LLHE you've played doesn't help the impression that you actually have played less than I have.

4th attempt: How much LLHE have you played? (You may define LLHE as you wish)

Actually, in low limit hold em being played THIS CENTURY, there is a tendency for your average donkey table to be MORE LIKELY to have 10 to a flop when there is a preflop raise.

More likely than what?

Stop with the subjective measures - start posting some objective measures. How many hands per hour do you see a pre-flop raise where all 10 people play?

I'll just chalk it up to general dumbassery on your part.

Can't even come up with your own insults? :laugh:

Callipygian:
- Knows what a big bet in $4/$8 is.
- Knows that LLHE players are loose, not tight.
- Knows that 10:1 refers to 10 to 1, not 10 for 1.
- Thinks people can make 1-2 BB/hr from LLHE, maybe 3 BB/hr if advanced plays are made.

Cardcounter0:
- Thinks that a big bet in $4/$8 is $16, and told callipygian to "get a grip" if he thought otherwise.
- Claims that LLHE players are tight, so that you have to play loose to beat them, and thinks callipygian doesn't "even have the basic terminology of the game down".
- Explained how 10:1 means 10 for 1, not 10 to 1, and cited 3:2 blackjacks as an example.
- Claims people can make 10 BB/hr from LLHE, and posted 3 hours of charity game play one weekend as proof. P.S. He brought a girl to the event, did he mention that?
- Starts a new thread where he posts a 0.1 BB/hr play in order to demonstrate how one can "crush" a LLHE game for 10 BB/hr.

I don't think I will be taking any advice from you.

 

[cardcounter0]

As usual, no knowledge or content in your post. I am done with this thread, the concept has been presented. Those who wish can take the concept presented and run with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cardcounter0
Actually, in low limit hold em being played THIS CENTURY, there is a tendency for your average donkey table to be MORE LIKELY to have 10 to a flop when there is a preflop raise.

More likely than what?

Uhhh... more likely than when there is not a raise. Read the post, I even present the reason why.

 

[callipygian]

I am done with this thread, the concept has been presented.

You were done the second you insisted that 10:1 meant 10 for 1 and not 10 to 1.

Once again, you simply didn't realize it.

And just to poke it in your eye ...

Take 5: How much LLHE have you played? (You may define LLHE as you wish)

 

[callipygian]

more likely than when there is not a raise.

Your claim that 10 to the flop when there is a preflop raise is more common than 10 to the flop when there is not a preflop raise is totally irrelevant to any of the points. My contention is that any hand that requires 10 to the flop is rare enough so that the value is going to be low.

How common is it for 10 people to go to a flop, raise or no raise? How much is this play worth in terms of BB/hr?

Answer the objective questions, and think before you post. You won't look so foolish if you do.

 

[cardcounter0]

How common is it for 10 people to go to a flop, raise or no raise?

Any one that has played any reasonable amount of time at the commonly offered lowest limit in the casino within the past 8 years can answer that question. Or if you suddenly find yourself in a limp-call any raise-fest table, you now know one adjustment you can make.

Your claim that 10 to the flop when there is a preflop raise is more common than 10 to the flop when there is not a preflop raise is totally irrelevant to any of the points.

Then why did you ask the question? Nevermind, something else I can chalk up to dumbassery.


I have presented a 'concept', one which you apparently cannot grasp. Maybe someone else here will.

Play:
Any two cards from the big blind (that happens 100%) when over half the table has called a preflop raise (happens quite frequently at no fold em low limits).
Any two suited from the SB when half the table has called.

by extension:
Less than premium hands when there are already 4-5 limpers.
When the table has shown strong tendency for all to call a early position raise, you can call also with Almost any two - the "almost" will vary by the estimate of just how many will call the raise along with you.

Then you can extend to --
Less than premium hands when there are already 4-5 limpers, Raise with stronger hands that traditionaly would not be considered 'raising' hands.

If you insist on playing 15% of your hands at a calling station passive low limit table, the blinds and rake are going to eat you up, your premium hands are going to get cracked by donkeys playing garbage at such a rate, that the number of times your premium hands hold up, you are going to wind up winning 1 BB/hr and are better off spending your time looking for change on the casino floor.

By increasing your hands played (and your preflop raising percentage) These adjustments will increase your win rate beyond the traditional 2 bb/hr of tougher higher limit games.

 

[callipygian]

Any one that has played any reasonable amount of time at the commonly offered lowest limit in the casino within the past 8 years can answer that question.

Are you one such person?

Take 6: How much LLHE have you played? (You may define LLHE as you wish)

Then why did you ask the question?

The same reason I asked you if you were confusing $4/$8 with $8/$16 in the other thread. In the more charitable sense, it's to give you an out - to give you a chance to correct any simple mistakes or typographical errors. In the less charitable sense, it's to let you hang yourself with your own words.

I have presented a 'concept', one which you apparently cannot grasp.

Or one which very clearly falls below any level of claim you've made. Your much-touted "play any two from the big blind if everyone has called a raise" is certainly a valid play; unfortunately, it doesn't accomplish your ultimate goal, which is to prove that 10 BB/hr is a valid number.

(Come to think of it - given that you claimed 10 BB/hr when you thought a BB in $4/$8 was $16, are you actually claiming that your win rate is 10x$16/hr, which would be 20 BB/hr?)

Play:
Any two cards from the big blind (that happens 100%) when over half the table has called a preflop raise (happens quite frequently at no fold em low limits).
Any two suited from the SB when half the table has called.

by extension:
Less than premium hands when there are already 4-5 limpers.
When the table has shown strong tendency for all to call a early position raise, you can call also with Almost any two - the "almost" will vary by the estimate of just how many will call the raise along with you.

Then you can extend to --
Less than premium hands when there are already 4-5 limpers, Raise with stronger hands that traditionaly would not be considered 'raising' hands.

Why don't you define these hands in objective terms rather than subjective terms?

Let's try the dumbed-down version. I'll list 10 hands, and you classify them as "premium", "less than premium", "marginal", "very marginal", or "none of the others but included in any two cards".

1. TT
2. 88
3. K9s
4. K9o
5. 98s
6. 98o
7. 32s
8. 32o
9. 74s
10. 74o

If you insist on playing 15% of your hands at a calling station passive low limit table, the blinds and rake are going to eat you up, your premium hands are going to get cracked by donkeys playing garbage at such a rate, that the number of times your premium hands hold up, you are going to wind up winning 1 BB/hr and are better off spending your time looking for change on the casino floor.

So are players at LLHE loose or tight, by your definition?

 

[cardcounter0]

Good now it seems your actually asking questions instead of picking on semantics:

Let's try the dumbed-down version. I'll list 10 hands, and you classify them as "premium", "less than premium", "marginal", "very marginal", or "none of the others but included in any two cards".

1. TT
2. 88
3. K9s
4. K9o
5. 98s
6. 98o
7. 32s
8. 32o
9. 74s
10. 74o

Here is a concept you missed: Preflop hand selection is less important than how you play post flop.
It trivializes your list of hands.

Here is another concept that is going to blow your mind: Hand rankings are subjective. They are dependent on how you play post flop, your tendencies, and change based on the way the table is playing against you. With a particular set of players suited connectors become more valuable (98s) with another they are useless, you aren't going to get paid, fold.

You should create a list of hands that YOU feel are premium", "less than premium", "marginal", "very marginal", or "none of the others but included in any two cards". Your own personal list. Then refine it based on your experience and examination of your play. Remember to keep position in mind, and how the other players play.

"it doesn't accomplish your ultimate goal, which is to prove that 10 BB/hr is a valid number."

Really, I don't recall stating any goal. I don't feel any need to prove anything, there are any number of players that crushed low limit games at the rate I described and probably moved up to more profitable limits. I don't need to prove it, I have done it. When ever I am killing time waiting for a higher limit seat, or like last weekend, don't have anything better to do, I exceed 2bbs and hour, unless I lose LOL -- there is that variance thing going on, although nothing like the variance one experiences playing blackjack with a large spread.

Here is another concept: In poker there are no absolutes. I can state for a fact, what your long term EV is in blackjack with 8,8 vs Ten, and I can state for fact what the most profitable move you can make. I can express it to 6 decimal places if you want. In poker, about the only thing I can absolutely state is the frequency that you will get dealt 8,8. Should you call, raise, or fold? It depends. How often will you win? It depends. If you do call with 8,8 and someone raises, should you call? It depends.

so for your list of ten hands?
1. TT
2. 88
3. K9s
4. K9o
5. 98s
6. 98o
7. 32s
8. 32o
9. 74s
10. 74o
Some are premium, some are marginal, some you should raise with. Which ones? When? It depends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cardcounter0
If you insist on playing 15% of your hands at a calling station passive low limit table, the blinds and rake are going to eat you up, your premium hands are going to get cracked by donkeys playing garbage at such a rate, that the number of times your premium hands hold up, you are going to wind up winning 1 BB/hr and are better off spending your time looking for change on the casino floor.

So are players at LLHE loose or tight, by your definition?

Once again, loose and tight, are useless definitions. Passive/Aggresive, ability or tendency to call raises cold, bluff, etc. are more important factors to be looking for. LLHE players are mostly red, some with a shade of pink, but they all are kind of sour. That makes as much sense as calling them loose or tight.

 

[cardcounter0]

Your claim that 10 to the flop when there is a preflop raise is more common than 10 to the flop when there is not a preflop raise is totally irrelevant to any of the points.

In the more charitable sense, it's to give you an out - to give you a chance to correct any simple mistakes or typographical errors. In the less charitable sense, it's to let you hang yourself with your own words.

OMG WTF BBQ!!!!

NOW YOU ARE GOING TO "TRAP" ME ON A POINT THAT YOU ADMIT IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT!!!! WOOOOHOOO(OOOOOOoOOLgfnadkljncdio!!!!!

Here read this very carefully: (move your lips if you have to)
In certain games (it depends, remember) there are certain groups of players (not all people play the same) that have a tendency (tendency -- not every time all the time) to call a raise with any two, when if there had not been a raise they would have folded.

The reason is poker becomes a macho game, and they look at someone raising as an attack. They have to defend. A limp is not that big an attack, therefore the need to defend is less.

Some people take great pleaure in beating AA with garbage. Some people play just to suck out.

When you find yourself at a table full of these types of players (and these are the types of players that often [[that is often -- not all the time]] that populate low limit games. You will find the entire table, or a large part of it, calling and seeing a flop to a raise more often than you see the same number of palyers simply limping in.

SO when you do find yourself at these types of games, there are a large variety of hands that you can now play that you would not at other games.

I already know that you do not have the experience to have seen this first hand, and you are so obtuse you probably didn't notice if you were at a table where it did occur.

 

[callipygian]

Good now it seems your actually asking questions instead of picking on semantics

I've been asking questions for a long time. Why haven't you answered any of them?

Be honest - have you played even a single hand of low limit hold'em at a casino?

So are low limit players loose or tight? Pick your definition, and then say whether they're loose or tight.

Explain why you said "weak-tight", I responded with "loose passive", and then YOU AGREED. Which is it? Tight or loose?

If you couldn't take the second to realize that a big bet in $4/$8 was $8, what gives the reader any confidence that you've taken the minute (or hour) it takes to calculate an EV correctly?

Unless you define "very marginal hands", there's no way to tell what you really mean. Are you talking ATo, 98o, or 73o?

How much LLHE have you played? (You may define LLHE as you wish)

How much LLHE have you played? (You may define LLHE as you wish)

How common is it for 10 people to go to a flop, raise or no raise? How much is this play worth in terms of BB/hr?

How much LLHE have you played? (You may define LLHE as you wish)

Instead of grandstanding to try and con the casual readers of this thread, I suggest you simply pick any of the quoted questions and answer them.

Here is a concept you missed: Preflop hand selection is less important than how you play post flop.
It trivializes your list of hands.

Trivial or not, this is not a "I want to know, please tell me" question. This is a quiz to see how little/much you actually know. You've said that:

Play:
... Less than premium hands when there are already 4-5 limpers.
When the table has shown strong tendency for all to call a early position raise, you can call also with Almost any two - the "almost" will vary by the estimate of just how many will call the raise along with you.

I asked you to define these terms in an open-question format, and now I've asked you to define these terms in a closed-question format. You are free to answer however you think the best response is - you can give criteria for judging which hands are premium, less than premium, or almost any two; alternatively, you can use the list I made and list them.

Either will do.

You can qualify your statement with things like "6+ limpers definitely call; 4-5 limpers consider calling; 2-3 limpers don't call" if you like. You can qualify your statements however you wish - so long as the measure is OBJECTIVE, not SUBJECTIVE.

Some are premium, some are marginal, some you should raise with. Which ones? When? It depends.

You've already given your scenario, above. If you want me to quote your own posts for you because you can't even remember what you wrote, let me do it again:

Play:
... Less than premium hands when there are already 4-5 limpers.
When the table has shown strong tendency for all to call a early position raise, you can call also with Almost any two - the "almost" will vary by the estimate of just how many will call the raise along with you.

The "when" is already defined. I'm asking for a definition of "which ones" YOU would play. YOU.

Here is another concept that is going to blow your mind: Hand rankings are subjective.

I'm asking about YOU.

YOU. What YOU would do. What YOU think.

You should create a list of hands that YOU feel are premium", "less than premium", "marginal", "very marginal", or "none of the others but included in any two cards". Your own personal list. Then refine it based on your experience and examination of your play. Remember to keep position in mind, and how the other players play.

I already have my list. I want to see whether you have yours. YOURS. YOU, YOU, YOU.

This is not a seminar where I've signed up and paid you $50 to evaluate my play. This is a thread where you've claimed to be an expert, yet in every verifiable manner, you have played less and know less than I do.

I don't need to prove it, I have done it.

You won't even answer a question as simple as how much LLHE you've played - what makes your claims of winning money believable?

I exceed 2bbs and hour, unless I lose LOL

Right, a bimodal distribution in long term play.

Unless, of course, you mean in the short term, in which case you've posted a short-term win rate for half of your distribution, which is dishonest. But that's the entire point of this questioning, isn't it? That you've been caught red-handed lying about anything that can be verified.

Once again, loose and tight, are useless definitions.

Really?

After you get 10 years under your belt, and you get in a typical weak-tight, calling station, no-fold 'em $4/$8 hold 'em game, let me know what your win rate is.

The hallmark of no-fold'em is LOOSE passive players, not tight passive: 5-7 to the flop and at least one caller all the way to the river.

I agree.

:laugh:

 

[cardcounter0]

Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cardcounter0
After you get 10 years under your belt, and you get in a typical weak-tight, calling station, no-fold 'em $4/$8 hold 'em game, let me know what your win rate is.

The hallmark of no-fold'em is LOOSE passive players, not tight passive: 5-7 to the flop and at least one caller all the way to the river.

I agree.

Yes, really. Why don't you show my entire answer?

First, I would break the habit of focusing in on the meaningless. Although you keep trying to JAM "LOOSE" into my mouth, I was more in agreement with your use of the word "passive".

SO REALLY -- LET'S REVIEW HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION (which you continue to ask) "ARE LOW LIMIT PLAYERS LOOSE OR TIGHT?"

If you are basing "loose" or "tight" simply on starting hand selection, then you are like one baby step beyond LEVEL 1. You might try thinking in terms of "AGRESSIVE" "PASSIVE" "WEAK" etc.

Loose, tight? As I said -- who cares? It does not matter. Those are meaningless terms. The best hand is only a few % better than the worse hand before the flop. Again, you are focused on the tiny detail. It is much more important what you do AFTER the flop, and on the TURN and RIVER the bets DOUBLE -- Player's mistakes are twice as big there.

Playing too many hands preflop ie - Loose? Gosh, that means the player is giving up a few percent. Calling a turn check/raise with middle pair and a gut shot -- geee, it doesn't matter if the player is tight or loose preflop -- that is a much bigger and more expensive mistake.

Like I said, try to find players that are WEAK or PASSIVE. ie- check/call, only raise the river with absolute nuts, won't raise with a draw no matter how many outs they have, only bet with a made hand, never bet for value --- PASSIVE. If they play like that, I don't care how TIGHT or LOOSE they are.

I don't know Sammy Farha personally, but I understand he is a "loose" player.
See how meaningless "loose" and "tight" is? Do you think you could win at a table full of "loose" Sammy Farha players? Sammy is aggressive and capable of pushing his small edges very hard, something a passive small stakes player will not do.

First, I would break the habit of focusing in on the meaningless. Although you keep trying to JAM "LOOSE" into my mouth, I was more in agreement with your use of the word "passive".

Once again, loose and tight, are useless definitions. Passive/Aggresive, ability or tendency to call raises cold, bluff, etc. are more important factors to be looking for. LLHE players are mostly red, some with a shade of pink, but they all are kind of sour. That makes as much sense as calling them loose or tight.

I WONDER HOW MANY TIMES I WILL HAVE TO ANSWER YOUR "HAND LIST" QUESTION BEFORE THIS SINKS IN:

Preflop hand selection is less important than how you play post flop.
It trivializes your list of hands.

Here is another concept that is going to blow your mind: Hand rankings are subjective. They are dependent on how you play post flop, your tendencies, and change based on the way the table is playing against you. With a particular set of players suited connectors become more valuable (98s) with another they are useless, you aren't going to get paid, fold.

I just posted here again to clarify a few points, I stated previously I am done with this thread, so feel free to get in the last meaningless no content posts, you always do.

 

[callipygian]

Yes, really. Why don't you show my entire answer?

Because it's irrelevant. The point isn't whether players are actually loose or tight - anyone (and this in particular appears to exclude you) knows which it is. You posted that the "typical" game was "weak-tight" - if "loose" and "tight" are meaningless, why are you calling the games "weak-tight"?

Furthermore, if the definitions are meaningless, then why do you start off your response to me (who counterclaimed the players are "loose passive") with "I agree"?

Obviously, at some point in your life, you thought that "loose" and "tight" were meaningful definitions - you even use the terms yourself. So the issue here isn't whether players are actually loose or tight, it is why you insist there's no distinction now when you believed in a distinction before.

And since you've started a new thread, I assume your threat to stop posting on this thread is real this time - in which case, I'll just lay it out: you only started claiming loose and tight are meaningless terms when you got caught claiming LLHE games are tight.

SO REALLY -- LET'S REVIEW HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION (which you continue to ask) "ARE LOW LIMIT PLAYERS LOOSE OR TIGHT?"

Zero.

I WONDER HOW MANY TIMES I WILL HAVE TO ANSWER YOUR "HAND LIST" QUESTION BEFORE THIS SINKS IN:

Once, of course. Which is one more time than you've actually answered it.

Does this post deal with post-flop play, or pre-flop play?

Play:
Any two cards from the big blind (that happens 100%) when over half the table has called a preflop raise (happens quite frequently at no fold em low limits).
Any two suited from the SB when half the table has called.

by extension:
Less than premium hands when there are already 4-5 limpers.
When the table has shown strong tendency for all to call a early position raise, you can call also with Almost any two - the "almost" will vary by the estimate of just how many will call the raise along with you.

Then you can extend to --
Less than premium hands when there are already 4-5 limpers, Raise with stronger hands that traditionaly would not be considered 'raising' hands.

I just posted here again to clarify a few points

I believe your points are very clear.

In addition to:
- Insisting that 1 big bet in $4/$8 limit is $16.
- Telling me a typical LLHE game is tight.
- Not reading posts, or not reading them carefully.
- Criticizing other people for improperly punctuated English and then posting in all caps.

We can now add the following to your resume:
- 10 BB/hr can be achieved if you make multiple 0.1 BB/hr plays.
- 10:1 means 10 for 1, just as 3:2 blackjacks mean the same thing.
- Encouraging posters to ask more questions when 9 questions (5 unique) have not been answered.

Loud and clear, kid, loud and clear.